Did the World Shake When You Were Redeemed?

[gabrielleabelle]

Thanks for keeping me entertained while housesitting, guys. There were a bunch of insightful and interesting responses to my last entry. I didn't even bother replying to comments because I felt like keeping my own opinion to myself on this one and just seeing what others thought. Definitely some interesting stuff there

Comments

[eowyn_315]

Heh, I don't disagree with you nearly as much as you thought I would. :) In fact, I agreed with absolutely everything you said, except that I never really thought to define redemption as trying. If you'd given that definition of redemption before you posted the poll, I think I would've voted "no," too

[gabrielleabelle]

lol. Well, I presented the poll figuring people would answer on the basis of what they think "redemption" means. And they may not agree with me on it. Obviously, a lot of people don't, as evidenced by the poll results thus far. :)

I do see Spike's soul as being important for his character's development. Not necessarily his redemption (as I mentioned, I see these as two different issues). But it's only with a soul that he's able to fully realize his potential. Also, his redemptive journey will be easier with a soul.

However, I'd say that a soulless Spike, in the right circumstances, could also be said to be on his way to redemption. It would just take a lot more work for him, and I think he would never really come into his own as a character without the soul (This is where I disagree with rahirah, I believe).

Uh...so...basically...yeah, I agree. :)

[gabrielleabelle]

And that's a huge reason why I deliberately made it all but impossible, in my 'verse, for him to get one.

And that's what I found so interesting about your fic. :) It's an intriguing exploration of what could have happened with Spike if he'd been given the tools to learn his own morality.

And upon whether one sees vampires as incomplete humans, or as whole beings that are different from humans.

And interesting question. One I've thought about quite a bit. Personally, I think it's a bit of both. To apply the question to the case of Spike, yes, he is a whole being that is different from a human. And he accepts that at first. However, later in the series, he has a desire to regain what made him fully human, which he can only get with a soul. I don't think it's a slam against the individuality or character of vampires to say that the soul gives them that spark of humanity

Also, it probably doesn't matter as that LJ user isn't on my flist and will likely never read this post, but I'd actually rather not have her called out like that in

[deird1]

O.O
I got quoted by someone! How awesome!

I don't know if I could pick an actual moment when Spike's redemption took place. I'd tend to view it more as a journey of redemption - and, somewhere along that journey, Spike won himself a soul. He was still starting to get redemption before that, and still continuing to afterwards, but getting the soul was part of the redemption - and, I think, a very necessary part.

[gabrielleabelle]

Of course you got quoted. You spoke pretty words. :)

He was still starting to get redemption before that, and still continuing to afterwards, but getting the soul was part of the redemption - and, I think, a very necessary part.

Here now I'm curious. If he'd never gotten a soul, would his entire redemptive journey have been negated? Why is the soul such a necessary part that his entire redemption hinges on it?

[deird1]

Well, the thing is, I don't think "Spike has a soul!" is really a huge part of the redemptive journey. Part, sure, but not a major part.

The necessary bit, as I see it, is "Spike wins his soul!" - in that he decides he needs a soul.
He decides, basically, that he is going to become a hero no matter what it costs. And he risks absolutely everything to do it. That moment is pretty damn important.

[gabrielleabelle]

So is it the soul that's important or the decision, itself? That is, if Spike were to make a conscious choice to do good and not be evil, but he never went for a soul, would his entire redemptive journey be null and void? Cause, from what I've seen to a lot of people, it hinges on Spike going to get a soul whereas the redemption, for me, hinges on the decision, which is independent of the soul and can exist without it.

If that made any sense. I just got done editing. My head's a little muddled now. :)

[stormwreath]

Spike's precise moment of redemption was when he said "It's what she would have wanted... No. It's what *I* want." But that's in Angel Season 5 so I can't tell you the context. :-)

Actually, the idea that redemption is an ongoing and never-ending process, not a single thing that you "achieve", is a big theme on 'Angel', so you're pretty much in agreement with Joss's own ideas there.

I still think that without a soul, Spike would have been fatally flawed. He could try to behave the way Buffy would want him to, but it would still be an act, and he'd still have that urge deep within his lack-of-soul to twist their love into something dark and destructive. Eowyn's glass ceiling metaphor is a good one. A soul represents the spark of humanity, of altruism; without it Spike is, in some ways, not a person but a very well-trained animal.

[gabrielleabelle]

Spike's precise moment of redemption was when he said "It's what she would have wanted... No. It's what *I* want." But that's in Angel Season 5 so I can't tell you the context. :-)

Which definition of redemption are you using there? Is that when he's all fully atoned and good with the world or what?

Not trying to be a smass, and I know I don't know the context. But we need to make sure we're on the same page with our terminology here.

I still think that without a soul, Spike would have been fatally flawed.

Agreed, but that's a separate issue from redemption from one's past.

He could try to behave the way Buffy would want him to, but it would still be an act, and he'd still have that urge deep within his lack-of-soul to twist their love into something dark and destructive.

So I'm guessing that you think redemption requires Spike to do good with full moral awareness then. That any good he does without complete understanding of the reasons behind it doesn't count towards his redemption.

[eowyn_315]

Which definition of redemption are you using there? Is that when he's all fully atoned and good with the world or what?

I can't speak for stormwreath but that quote is kind of a perfect example of what I was trying to say. To give the barest of bare-bones context, basically, Spike is choosing to fight on the side of good, not out of love for someone else, not because it's what someone else would want him to do, but because he chooses it, because it's the right thing to do. It's a demonstration of his independence, using his own soul to make a decision, and choosing to do good even though he's not going to get a damn thing out of it. I don't think that's the first time it's ever happened, but it's the first time he verbalizes it that clearly

[gabrielleabelle]

Fair enough, and I, of course, grant that the soul gives Spike that ability to make a decision such as that. I was just a bit thrown by it being referred to as the "precise moment of redemption". I hardly think choosing to do good for the sake of doing good fully redeems oneself for a century's worth of unspeakably evil acts. It's a milestone in the journey, yes. But it's not the end of the journey, itself.

[slaymesoftly]

No disagreement here. :) As you said, nothing anyone does is completely altruistic - even if the only pleasure you get out of it is a warm fuzzy feeling, you are doing it to feel good. Or, you're doing good because it's the "right" thing to do and that's important to you. And doing things for love is almost never wrong -- unless your "love" is asking you for help robbing a bank...:)

[gabrielleabelle]

Oh! Agreement! Yay! :)

[slaymesoftly]

LOL Thousands of years ago, when I was in high school, we had a philosophy unit in class. The teacher was aghast to find that almost the entire (small) class believed that people did things because it made them feel good - even things for other people. She called us a bunch of hedonists. :)

[gabrielleabelle]

lol. My cynical streak comes from my time as a biology major in college. I took evolutionary psychology (One of the most dehumanizing subjects ever), and discovered the wonder that is genetically-programmed instinctual behavior to continue the propagation of the species. In other words, a mother dying to save her child isn't doing so for completely selfless purposes. In saving her genetic offspring, she ensures the survival of her species and, thus, receives some benefit from her sacrifice.

I just tend to boil that all down to "the warm fuzzy feeling" when you do something nice for no reason. :)

[jamalov29]

Great post .In fact, count me in to share most of your opinions.;-)

He spent a long time as a very evil creature. I don't know that that can be redeemed if we're going by those terms. Yes. A soul doesn't negate the past crimes and evilness.
Somebody doing good deeds "for love" doesn't diminish the value of those deeds. It's as good a reason to do good as any, really. Nods profusely. Spike's motivations never weighed so much in the balance for me. What mattered is that he wanted to do good. Like you said, I think -and I'm not a cynic :-) that everyone of us has selfish motives somehow.

a soulless Spike would never be able to do good with a full understanding of what he's doing. Maybe here would be the small point where I don't share your views. I tend to think a soulless Spikes knows well what is right and wrong but he chooses to care,or not care. He 's aware when he does something good or not.
Redemption is trying. Seeking the good, whatever the reason, even if you don't understand why. Going against your nature for years while

[gabrielleabelle]

I agree with your agreement. :)

It's a complicated matter

[jamalov29]

:)

I wanted to add that now that I've read the other interesting and insightful comments ( thank you for the great thread ! )I agree that some made very valid points, and Spike maybe never could reach his full potential without the soul..however I have a tendency to see everything through spuffy glasses and Buffy as his external compass is a marvelous thing in my world.
To those who would argue : what would happen if /when she isn't in his life anymore for whatever reasons? I would say that his love for her changed him deeply and he wouldn't stop being aware of right and wrong and he would keep going, keep trying .
Of course that would give love an extraordinary power.
That would mean that love is enough, memories of love are enough.

Which is my belief. And that's basically where I would be rather alone. ;-)

Re: It's a complicated matter

[gabrielleabelle]

It is a very complicated matter. Especially because there are many ways to approach it. Looking at things as they happened in the show. Also, looking at things as they could have been if it had played out differently.

Honestly, I actually think love is one of the more noble motivations to do good. One could do good for money or out of fear or self-preservation. Love is a pretty positive motivator, so I have no problem with a soulless Spike doing good for love, and I would still say he's on a redemptive path while doing so.

I also think it's interesting to speculate how Spike would respond after Buffy's death in this circumstance. Whether he'd eventually return to his evilness or if he'd continue doing good in her memory. I'm an optimist, so I tend to think the latter. :)