Did the World Shake When You Were Redeemed?

[gabrielleabelle]

Thanks for keeping me entertained while housesitting, guys. There were a bunch of insightful and interesting responses to my last entry. I didn't even bother replying to comments because I felt like keeping my own opinion to myself on this one and just seeing what others thought. Definitely some interesting stuff there

Comments

[eowyn_315]

Heh, I don't disagree with you nearly as much as you thought I would. :) In fact, I agreed with absolutely everything you said, except that I never really thought to define redemption as trying. If you'd given that definition of redemption before you posted the poll, I think I would've voted "no," too

[gabrielleabelle]

lol. Well, I presented the poll figuring people would answer on the basis of what they think "redemption" means. And they may not agree with me on it. Obviously, a lot of people don't, as evidenced by the poll results thus far. :)

I do see Spike's soul as being important for his character's development. Not necessarily his redemption (as I mentioned, I see these as two different issues). But it's only with a soul that he's able to fully realize his potential. Also, his redemptive journey will be easier with a soul.

However, I'd say that a soulless Spike, in the right circumstances, could also be said to be on his way to redemption. It would just take a lot more work for him, and I think he would never really come into his own as a character without the soul (This is where I disagree with rahirah, I believe).

Uh...so...basically...yeah, I agree. :)

[gabrielleabelle]

And that's a huge reason why I deliberately made it all but impossible, in my 'verse, for him to get one.

And that's what I found so interesting about your fic. :) It's an intriguing exploration of what could have happened with Spike if he'd been given the tools to learn his own morality.

And upon whether one sees vampires as incomplete humans, or as whole beings that are different from humans.

And interesting question. One I've thought about quite a bit. Personally, I think it's a bit of both. To apply the question to the case of Spike, yes, he is a whole being that is different from a human. And he accepts that at first. However, later in the series, he has a desire to regain what made him fully human, which he can only get with a soul. I don't think it's a slam against the individuality or character of vampires to say that the soul gives them that spark of humanity

Also, it probably doesn't matter as that LJ user isn't on my flist and will likely never read this post, but I'd actually rather not have her called out like that in

[rahirah]

My apologies. Deleted.

[eowyn_315]

Yeah, that's why I kind of separated my thoughts on this one. Because from a storytelling point of view, I totally agree with you. It's far more interesting to explore what happens when Spike doesn't have a soul. (Although I would say that giving Spike a soul doesn't necessarily preclude moral conflict. I think Angel season 2 is all the evidence we need that giving a vampire a soul doesn't automatically make them good.)

But looking at Spike as a character, the goal isn't to tell a good story; it's for Spike to reach the end of his journey. And I think the soul gets him farther on that journey than not having a soul ever could. That's why I think he needs the soul in canon, and yet have never given him one in a fanfic. :)

[rahirah]

But looking at Spike as a character, the goal isn't to tell a good story; it's for Spike to reach the end of his journey.

But if reaching the end of his journey doesn't make a good story, then why tell it? And does every journey have to have only one ending?

[eowyn_315]

But if reaching the end of his journey doesn't make a good story, then why tell it?

You don't have to tell every story. We all have a journey - I have a journey, a starting point and a goal and a process of events and actions that have led toward that goal, but that doesn't mean that it's worth telling a story about. However, Joss clearly thought Spike's journey to "regain what made him fully human" (to use gabrielleabelle's phrase) was a good story; you may disagree.

And does every journey have to have only one ending?

No, obviously, as evidenced by fanfic. But if we're talking canon, then I think it's made pretty clear what the endpoint of Spike's journey is meant to be, and I want to see him achieve it - or at least get as close to it as possible.

[rahirah]

I don't think it was a bad story. I have problems with some of the execution, but that's another matter. I just think that the existence of Angel, and his position as the leading man of the franchise, is always going to overshadow Spike's story, because they're so similar. Even though Spike's acquisition of a soul was deliberate and Angel's wasn't, Spike's always going to be "the other vampire with a soul." (I've seen some Angel fans argue that Angel's soul being a curse makes him a more complex and interesting character, and I can see where they're coming from, though I don't necessarily agree.)