I was watching 'Disharmony' earlier today and when Cordy did her line, "I thought she was just a great big lezbo" I immediately thought of the 'Closet' fics. Just thought I'd share that.
The huge Cordy/Xander/Willow/Oz fallout of S3 which literally ended the Cordy/Willow friendship in the show
Though I notice that of all the characters from 'Buffy' who went over to 'Angel', it's actually Willow and Cordy who stay in touch. Willow became the standard cross-over character when they needed someone from the other show on 'Angel'. (Which might have something to do with Alyson and Alexis being a couple, come to think of it; maybe Aly was often around on the 'Angel' set anyway?)
I mean, even her crush on Xander is telling to me. She gets a crush on the safest guy possible. Her best friend.For that matter, look at Oz himself. The least pushy guy on earth, with an almost-unnatural lack of interest in kissing Willow or going to bed with her. It always struck me that she was less interested in him as a sexual partner and more as (a) a really close friend - someone who understood her perfectly and was intelligent enough to converse with her as an equal (b) someone she could boast
( ... )
Yes. Perhaps something of their friendship surviving after all?
(Although if anyone in the two camps is going to stay in touch it kind of makes sense that it's those two, they were the only two that ever had a FRIENDSHIP friendship.)
The least pushy guy on earth
It occurs to me that, although they're very different otherwise, Oz and Tara take a similar approach to courting Willow. Neither of them seems to take a particularly active role. They're both just sort of there.
(As you mention below in another post, there probably wasn't any plan for Willow to be gay later. If we believe Joss's commentary, even as late as "Hush" they hadn't decided how far they were actually going in that direction--whether they would keep to "metaphor" or have an actual romantic relationship.)
actually unaware of her feelings I tend to think that the way that we see the Willow-Tara relationship develop onscreen fits better with Willow being mostly unaware of her feelings until she actually started to
( ... )
For that matter, look at Oz himself. The least pushy guy on earth, with an almost-unnatural lack of interest in kissing Willow or going to bed with her.
Yep yep. Oz practically has "Non-threatening" tattooed on his forehead.
But did she know all along that she was attracted to women - as you have her here - but be unwilling to go public about it because it would be too scary? Was she in denial about it, trying desperately to convince herself that she preferred boys really, and her crushes on girls were just a teenage phase? Or was she actually unaware of her feelings, and until she met Tara she just thought "That's all there is to love, it's no big deal" then got blown away by the reality of it?
I think cases could be made for any/all of those and more. Since the series isn't from Willow's POV, we get very little insight into what she's going through unless she tells Buffy. So the opportunity for gratuitous fanwank is enormous. :)
I dunno, you've got the sarcasm down perfectly. You just have to work on being less PC and more
( ... )
I mean, even her crush on Xander is telling to me. She gets a crush on the safest guy possible.
Interesting. I always saw it as more of a statement about Willow's self-esteem, rather than her sexuality. I don't know if other people do this, but I know when I was in middle/high school, I used to admire the popular guys from afar, but I knew they were out of my league, so I'd often end up crushing on the guys who were less cute, less popular - the attainable ones. Xander's probably the one guy she thought she actually had a chance with.
But then there's the feelings she doesn't externalize. The girls she notices or crushes on. And she knows that talking about that stuff would bring up all sorts of issues, so she keeps it to herself.I can kind of see her having a crush on Buffy, but she convinced herself that she just thought of Buffy as a really close friend, combined with admiration because Buffy's the Slayer and thus really cool. Totally no lesbian feelings there, no sir
( ... )
I can kind of see her having a crush on Buffy, but she convinced herself that she just thought of Buffy as a really close friend, combined with admiration because Buffy's the Slayer and thus really cool. Totally no lesbian feelings there, no sir. :)
Word.
(But which word?)
The thing is, I don't think there's much evidence of any internal issues - if they were planning to make Willow gay all along, I think they could've done more to drop hints
Yeah, but I don't think they were planning to 'make her gay all along'. It was a retcon; it's just a retcon that works really well, because pre-S4 Willow happened to have been written as someone who could be reinterpreted to be in the closet/in denial/unaware of her true feelings.
As far as I recall, we only ever really got one mention in dialogue of Willow having big issues about her gayness as such (as opposed to the "Do I love Tara or Oz?" question), in 'Primeval'; but one mention is better than none. :-)
WILLOW: Well, I haven't been Miss Available either. I--I kept secrets. I hid
( ... )
Yeah, but I don't think they were planning to 'make her gay all along'.
No, I don't think they were, either. At best, I'd say they were keeping it open as a possibility, since they've said they wanted to make somebody gay, and went with Willow after Seth Green left. But I think they probably laid more groundwork for Xander than for Willow, and so while it's easy to say, "Oh, Willow must've had feelings for girls, but she didn't say anything," when you look back at the early seasons, there's no actual evidence of those feelings.
I always saw it as more of a statement about Willow's self-esteem, rather than her sexuality.
Well, that too. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. :)
I can kind of see her having a crush on Buffy, but she convinced herself that she just thought of Buffy as a really close friend, combined with admiration because Buffy's the Slayer and thus really cool.
No, no. Cordy. She had a crush on Cordy.
The thing is, I don't think there's much evidence of any internal issues - if they were planning to make Willow gay all along, I think they could've done more to drop hints without it being evident to any other character that there was more to Willow than meets the eye.
Heh, well it is a retcon, so any explanation of Willow's sexuality is gonna be pure fanwank. I just don't see Willow being gay as being a contradictory retcon like some people do, and I can easily see how it could fit into canon events even though it obviously wasn't intended.
Heh. I'm still not sure how long it'll be, yet. I'd be able to plan it out better if I were more familiar with AtS, but I kinda have to wait until I get further along on my rewatch. :)
Comments 16
(The comment has been removed)
Reply
Reply
Reply
:-(
The huge Cordy/Xander/Willow/Oz fallout of S3 which literally ended the Cordy/Willow friendship in the show
Though I notice that of all the characters from 'Buffy' who went over to 'Angel', it's actually Willow and Cordy who stay in touch. Willow became the standard cross-over character when they needed someone from the other show on 'Angel'. (Which might have something to do with Alyson and Alexis being a couple, come to think of it; maybe Aly was often around on the 'Angel' set anyway?)
I mean, even her crush on Xander is telling to me. She gets a crush on the safest guy possible. Her best friend.For that matter, look at Oz himself. The least pushy guy on earth, with an almost-unnatural lack of interest in kissing Willow or going to bed with her. It always struck me that she was less interested in him as a sexual partner and more as (a) a really close friend - someone who understood her perfectly and was intelligent enough to converse with her as an equal (b) someone she could boast ( ... )
Reply
Yes. Perhaps something of their friendship surviving after all?
(Although if anyone in the two camps is going to stay in touch it kind of makes sense that it's those two, they were the only two that ever had a FRIENDSHIP friendship.)
The least pushy guy on earth
It occurs to me that, although they're very different otherwise, Oz and Tara take a similar approach to courting Willow. Neither of them seems to take a particularly active role. They're both just sort of there.
(As you mention below in another post, there probably wasn't any plan for Willow to be gay later. If we believe Joss's commentary, even as late as "Hush" they hadn't decided how far they were actually going in that direction--whether they would keep to "metaphor" or have an actual romantic relationship.)
actually unaware of her feelings I tend to think that the way that we see the Willow-Tara relationship develop onscreen fits better with Willow being mostly unaware of her feelings until she actually started to ( ... )
Reply
Yep yep. Oz practically has "Non-threatening" tattooed on his forehead.
But did she know all along that she was attracted to women - as you have her here - but be unwilling to go public about it because it would be too scary? Was she in denial about it, trying desperately to convince herself that she preferred boys really, and her crushes on girls were just a teenage phase? Or was she actually unaware of her feelings, and until she met Tara she just thought "That's all there is to love, it's no big deal" then got blown away by the reality of it?
I think cases could be made for any/all of those and more. Since the series isn't from Willow's POV, we get very little insight into what she's going through unless she tells Buffy. So the opportunity for gratuitous fanwank is enormous. :)
I dunno, you've got the sarcasm down perfectly. You just have to work on being less PC and more ( ... )
Reply
And yet, ironically, I think having that tattooed on his forehead would make him look more threatening, not less. :-)
Reply
Interesting. I always saw it as more of a statement about Willow's self-esteem, rather than her sexuality. I don't know if other people do this, but I know when I was in middle/high school, I used to admire the popular guys from afar, but I knew they were out of my league, so I'd often end up crushing on the guys who were less cute, less popular - the attainable ones. Xander's probably the one guy she thought she actually had a chance with.
But then there's the feelings she doesn't externalize. The girls she notices or crushes on. And she knows that talking about that stuff would bring up all sorts of issues, so she keeps it to herself.I can kind of see her having a crush on Buffy, but she convinced herself that she just thought of Buffy as a really close friend, combined with admiration because Buffy's the Slayer and thus really cool. Totally no lesbian feelings there, no sir ( ... )
Reply
Word.
(But which word?)
The thing is, I don't think there's much evidence of any internal issues - if they were planning to make Willow gay all along, I think they could've done more to drop hints
Yeah, but I don't think they were planning to 'make her gay all along'. It was a retcon; it's just a retcon that works really well, because pre-S4 Willow happened to have been written as someone who could be reinterpreted to be in the closet/in denial/unaware of her true feelings.
As far as I recall, we only ever really got one mention in dialogue of Willow having big issues about her gayness as such (as opposed to the "Do I love Tara or Oz?" question), in 'Primeval'; but one mention is better than none. :-)
WILLOW: Well, I haven't been Miss Available either. I--I kept secrets. I hid ( ... )
Reply
No, I don't think they were, either. At best, I'd say they were keeping it open as a possibility, since they've said they wanted to make somebody gay, and went with Willow after Seth Green left. But I think they probably laid more groundwork for Xander than for Willow, and so while it's easy to say, "Oh, Willow must've had feelings for girls, but she didn't say anything," when you look back at the early seasons, there's no actual evidence of those feelings.
Reply
Well, that too. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. :)
I can kind of see her having a crush on Buffy, but she convinced herself that she just thought of Buffy as a really close friend, combined with admiration because Buffy's the Slayer and thus really cool.
No, no. Cordy. She had a crush on Cordy.
The thing is, I don't think there's much evidence of any internal issues - if they were planning to make Willow gay all along, I think they could've done more to drop hints without it being evident to any other character that there was more to Willow than meets the eye.
Heh, well it is a retcon, so any explanation of Willow's sexuality is gonna be pure fanwank. I just don't see Willow being gay as being a contradictory retcon like some people do, and I can easily see how it could fit into canon events even though it obviously wasn't intended.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment