Total word on what these shinobi villages do to their children. It's infuriating if I think too hard about it. And they clearly make the problems the they have to deal with later.
but I think it also would perhaps satisfy a certain basic emotional need to feel as if you belong to SOMETHING -- some group, some cause, something. Because don't we all need that? Hell, even geeks like me (and probably you, if you're reading this) have geek circles to congregate in.
Maybe that's why I like Akatsuki. They're . . . a bunch of S-ranked, criminal geeks. They're obviously all total nerds for their jutsu/art/ideals, and it shows.
Epic, epic word. THEY ARE TOTAL GEEKS. And they are clearly the fringe groups, who cling to each other because they don't have anywhere else to go.
Total word on what these shinobi villages do to their children. It's infuriating if I think too hard about it. And they clearly make the problems the they have to deal with later.
Isn't it? And what's really nuts, in my opinion, is how Konoha is alternately portrayed as the Village of War/Destruction and The Village of Happy-Happy Sunshine. Well, manga, which IS it? I mean, this can be reconciled somewhat in 'fics, I think, but in canon, this is totally WTF to me.
See, I honestly don't think that it's portrayed as Village of War/Destruction in the manga. I mean, most of my problems with it I think are me picking up on things the manga is unaware of.
Suna, now, is show overtly as creating monsters - with Konoha it's all subtext.
I mean, sure PAIN was all 'Konoha is bad' but we all know he's a nice fat hypocrite.
See, I honestly don't think that it's portrayed as Village of War/Destruction in the manga. I mean, most of my problems with it I think are me picking up on things the manga is unaware of.
You may be right about that, actually. See, I was thinking of like, Danzou, the Elders, what they made Itachi do, but I guess it could be argued that this is a fringe group that doesn't represent Konoha as a whole. It could be true that we, as fans, are picking up on things which aren't meant to be seen.
Suna is indeed that in full.
Yeah, PAIN is indeed a huge hypocrite, although I think there may be some truth to the idea that the different ninja villages all have blood on their hands for putting bijuu in kids and doing all that fucked up stuff to begin with -- i.e. the stuff that led to the wars which ravaged his country. Unfortunately for him, his hypocrisy rather undermines that, and he didn't explain it in the particular detail it would merit, anyway. XD
I was thinking of like, Danzou, the Elders, what they made Itachi do, but I guess it could be argued that this is a fringe group that doesn't represent Konoha as a whole.
*nods* I think so. When you look at Konoha and most of the authority figures, they're all nice people who like Naruto. Compared with Suna, where it's Gaara and his siblings again everyone else except the other youths.
Yeah, PAIN is indeed a huge hypocrite, although I think there may be some truth to the idea that the different ninja villages all have blood on their hands for putting bijuu in kids and doing all that fucked up stuff to begin with -- i.e. the stuff that led to the wars which ravaged his country.
Yes, they do. But Pain is doing the exact same thing, as if the villages haven't ALREADY suffered from war.
Oh, the last couple of chapters have kinda butchered him as a good villain, imho.
I'm a bit peeved about the whole nuking Konoha and NO ONE DYING thing, even if, upon seeing the nuking of Konoha, I was like, "Pshaw, most everyone survived by some damned miracle, I'm sure." Still, EVERYONE surviving? Pfft. Kishi, get some balls. It did indeed hurt Pein's villain cred and it was pointless.
The hypocrisy . . . doesn't particularly bother me, on the other hand, because it makes him that much more asking for a smackdown, which I like in a villain. It'll be that much more satisfying to me when it happens.
Unlike Sasuke, I have no doubt in my mind that Pein will get his comeuppance for all his blatant hypocrisy, grudge-wanking, brattiness, projected self-loathing, and general doin'-it-rong-ness. Perhaps this is why I find villains easier to like than characters such as Sasuke, even though it feels odd to me.
Let's be honest here: SASUKE IS FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE TO LIKE.
Lord knows I don't.
I'm a bit peeved about the whole nuking Konoha and NO ONE DYING thing, even if, upon seeing the nuking of Konoha, I was like, "Pshaw, most everyone survived by some damned miracle, I'm sure."
I had the exact same reaction.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.
I know, right? I am not sure why I find Sasuke so hard to like, though, because I don't REALLY dislike anyone else. I like (or not necessarily "like" in all cases, but find them entertaining or intriguing) all the Akatsuki . . . hell, while I kinda despised Orochimaru, I enjoyed seeing him for his villainy and now I just find him hilarious/fail, so I can't say I really DISlike him proper, but, wow, Sasuke. I just find nothing enjoyable about this guy at all.
Except mini!Sasuke. I do like stories about Sasuke and Itachi when Sasuke was still mini!Sasuke, but that's mostly for his interaction with Itachi and the Uchiha dynamic and how that's a trainwreck waiting to happen.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.Fair enough. I enjoy Pein primarily for the same reason I enjoy Itachi -- that is, I find them to be interesting studies in how power didn't help them to have better lives
( ... )
I will say I could PROBABLY find Sasuke interesting for similar reasons, except the manga doesn't seem to portray him as... being as Obviously Wrong.
He IS Obviously Wrong and he does Obviously Wrong things and then the manga showers in in roses for it, and that, in a nutshell, is why I feel nothing but contempt for the boy, and utterly loathe Zuko comparisons.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
Well, in as much as Current Sasuke is impossible to like, by the same token, I don't see how mini!Sasuke could ever be disliked by anyone. Shame he had to grow up the way he did.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't even think Kishi has FORGOTTEN about these things; I think he just has a fucked up sense of priorities, plain and simple. Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience. To date, though, Kishi hasn't dropped the ball with Pein's interaction with Konan, I've thought (if anything, it's been strengthened by the last couple of chapters); if he screws that up for me, somehow, I'll be peeved.
I actually think non-massacre Sasuke would turn out to be a really sweet kid. Actually, that would make a great AU - where Naruto gets bitter from being treated like crap, Sasuke is all 'POWER OF LOVE WOOT!' and Sakura.... hmmm... Sakura would probably have a more overt slap slap kiss dynamic with Naruto and then fall for him and Sasuke would pine for her.
Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
LOL, bitter Naruto. That I'd like to see. And happy-go-lucky Sasuke. I suppose Sakura would still have developed similarly, but her crush on Sasuke might not have existed in the first place.
I got the sense that a lot of the girls just liked the guy because he was mysterious, but who knows. paperninja has a theory that the girls liked Sasuke because he was in a position of power and the oppressed will often want to align themselves with someone powerful to gain power, thus when Sakura became more self-actualizing, she got over Sasuke.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.It'd be the
( ... )
LOL, bitter Naruto. That I'd like to see. And happy-go-lucky Sasuke. I suppose Sakura would still have developed similarly, but her crush on Sasuke might not have existed in the first place.
It would be fun to see, and I agree that Sakura's crush on Sasuke probably wouldn't have ever happened. And I think paperninja is dead-on regarding Sasuke and his fangirls and Sakura getting over him.
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
WORD. That is reason 1,720 that killing Kakashi is Just Not Cool.
I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.Not that Kishimoto's ever shot himself in the foot before..... But I do think you chances are really good. Honestly, BOTH Nagato and ....the other kid, who's name
( ... )
Yeah, Kakashi isn't dead... I'm quite sure of it, but Kishi faking people out this way and then dragging it out is pretty uncool as well. Actually, for me, it's probably worse, because it just makes everything look ridiculous. And it was pointless. Honestly, what's the sense in fucking with your readers that way? I mean, I can sort of get tricking you about motives as he did with Itachi, but fake-deaths are sooooo lame. Lame, lame, lamesauce.
Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.That seems quite likely. Kishi claims Pein is "emotionless" (obviously very untrue); Konan seems pretty blatantly the key to his humanity. There'd be no point in establishing them as friends since they were children, otherwise
( ... )
Yeah, Kakashi isn't dead... I'm quite sure of it, but Kishi faking people out this way and then dragging it out is pretty uncool as well.
Especially considering everything that's going on with Konoha. I mean, if you need to have your readers on pins and needles cause they're an endless training sequence going on, but when you actually have something INTERESTING to write.... why? Why toy with Kakashi's life like this?
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
The whole arc was just poorly reasoned. I thought Naruto's endless training sessions spliced alongside the utter destruction of Konoha made Naruto's training seem really frivolous, but now that we're told Pein has done very little damage (seemingly... by some ridiculous miracle), that seems frivolous, too, thus rendering the entire arc kinda pointless all the way around.
I really think you just nailed it: what we've seen up until now was just padded filler to allow for time for Naruto to train. But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
but I think it also would perhaps satisfy a certain basic emotional need to feel as if you belong to SOMETHING -- some group, some cause, something. Because don't we all need that? Hell, even geeks like me (and probably you, if you're reading this) have geek circles to congregate in.
Maybe that's why I like Akatsuki. They're . . . a bunch of S-ranked, criminal geeks. They're obviously all total nerds for their jutsu/art/ideals, and it shows.
Epic, epic word. THEY ARE TOTAL GEEKS. And they are clearly the fringe groups, who cling to each other because they don't have anywhere else to go.
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Isn't it? And what's really nuts, in my opinion, is how Konoha is alternately portrayed as the Village of War/Destruction and The Village of Happy-Happy Sunshine. Well, manga, which IS it? I mean, this can be reconciled somewhat in 'fics, I think, but in canon, this is totally WTF to me.
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Suna, now, is show overtly as creating monsters - with Konoha it's all subtext.
I mean, sure PAIN was all 'Konoha is bad' but we all know he's a nice fat hypocrite.
(Fee free to argue with me about this.)
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You may be right about that, actually. See, I was thinking of like, Danzou, the Elders, what they made Itachi do, but I guess it could be argued that this is a fringe group that doesn't represent Konoha as a whole. It could be true that we, as fans, are picking up on things which aren't meant to be seen.
Suna is indeed that in full.
Yeah, PAIN is indeed a huge hypocrite, although I think there may be some truth to the idea that the different ninja villages all have blood on their hands for putting bijuu in kids and doing all that fucked up stuff to begin with -- i.e. the stuff that led to the wars which ravaged his country. Unfortunately for him, his hypocrisy rather undermines that, and he didn't explain it in the particular detail it would merit, anyway. XD
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*nods* I think so. When you look at Konoha and most of the authority figures, they're all nice people who like Naruto. Compared with Suna, where it's Gaara and his siblings again everyone else except the other youths.
Yeah, PAIN is indeed a huge hypocrite, although I think there may be some truth to the idea that the different ninja villages all have blood on their hands for putting bijuu in kids and doing all that fucked up stuff to begin with -- i.e. the stuff that led to the wars which ravaged his country.
Yes, they do. But Pain is doing the exact same thing, as if the villages haven't ALREADY suffered from war.
Oh, the last couple of chapters have kinda butchered him as a good villain, imho.
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The hypocrisy . . . doesn't particularly bother me, on the other hand, because it makes him that much more asking for a smackdown, which I like in a villain. It'll be that much more satisfying to me when it happens.
Unlike Sasuke, I have no doubt in my mind that Pein will get his comeuppance for all his blatant hypocrisy, grudge-wanking, brattiness, projected self-loathing, and general doin'-it-rong-ness. Perhaps this is why I find villains easier to like than characters such as Sasuke, even though it feels odd to me.
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Lord knows I don't.
I'm a bit peeved about the whole nuking Konoha and NO ONE DYING thing, even if, upon seeing the nuking of Konoha, I was like, "Pshaw, most everyone survived by some damned miracle, I'm sure."
I had the exact same reaction.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.
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Except mini!Sasuke. I do like stories about Sasuke and Itachi when Sasuke was still mini!Sasuke, but that's mostly for his interaction with Itachi and the Uchiha dynamic and how that's a trainwreck waiting to happen.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.Fair enough. I enjoy Pein primarily for the same reason I enjoy Itachi -- that is, I find them to be interesting studies in how power didn't help them to have better lives ( ... )
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He IS Obviously Wrong and he does Obviously Wrong things and then the manga showers in in roses for it, and that, in a nutshell, is why I feel nothing but contempt for the boy, and utterly loathe Zuko comparisons.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
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Well, in as much as Current Sasuke is impossible to like, by the same token, I don't see how mini!Sasuke could ever be disliked by anyone. Shame he had to grow up the way he did.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't even think Kishi has FORGOTTEN about these things; I think he just has a fucked up sense of priorities, plain and simple. Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience. To date, though, Kishi hasn't dropped the ball with Pein's interaction with Konan, I've thought (if anything, it's been strengthened by the last couple of chapters); if he screws that up for me, somehow, I'll be peeved.
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I actually think non-massacre Sasuke would turn out to be a really sweet kid. Actually, that would make a great AU - where Naruto gets bitter from being treated like crap, Sasuke is all 'POWER OF LOVE WOOT!' and Sakura.... hmmm... Sakura would probably have a more overt slap slap kiss dynamic with Naruto and then fall for him and Sasuke would pine for her.
Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
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I got the sense that a lot of the girls just liked the guy because he was mysterious, but who knows. paperninja has a theory that the girls liked Sasuke because he was in a position of power and the oppressed will often want to align themselves with someone powerful to gain power, thus when Sakura became more self-actualizing, she got over Sasuke.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.It'd be the ( ... )
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It would be fun to see, and I agree that Sakura's crush on Sasuke probably wouldn't have ever happened. And I think paperninja is dead-on regarding Sasuke and his fangirls and Sakura getting over him.
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
WORD. That is reason 1,720 that killing Kakashi is Just Not Cool.
I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.Not that Kishimoto's ever shot himself in the foot before..... But I do think you chances are really good. Honestly, BOTH Nagato and ....the other kid, who's name ( ... )
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Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.That seems quite likely. Kishi claims Pein is "emotionless" (obviously very untrue); Konan seems pretty blatantly the key to his humanity. There'd be no point in establishing them as friends since they were children, otherwise ( ... )
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Especially considering everything that's going on with Konoha. I mean, if you need to have your readers on pins and needles cause they're an endless training sequence going on, but when you actually have something INTERESTING to write.... why? Why toy with Kakashi's life like this?
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
Total. Word.
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I really think you just nailed it: what we've seen up until now was just padded filler to allow for time for Naruto to train. But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
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