I know, right? I am not sure why I find Sasuke so hard to like, though, because I don't REALLY dislike anyone else. I like (or not necessarily "like" in all cases, but find them entertaining or intriguing) all the Akatsuki . . . hell, while I kinda despised Orochimaru, I enjoyed seeing him for his villainy and now I just find him hilarious/fail, so I can't say I really DISlike him proper, but, wow, Sasuke. I just find nothing enjoyable about this guy at all.
Except mini!Sasuke. I do like stories about Sasuke and Itachi when Sasuke was still mini!Sasuke, but that's mostly for his interaction with Itachi and the Uchiha dynamic and how that's a trainwreck waiting to happen.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.
Fair enough. I enjoy Pein primarily for the same reason I enjoy Itachi -- that is, I find them to be interesting studies in how power didn't help them to have better lives.
You could say in many ways that this series puts forth that power is everything. But in Pein's case? His godlike powers are probably the worst thing that ever happened to him. If not for them, he would've had to grow up like a normal person, but there's no need to grow up when you can just stomp anyone who disagrees with you. What Nagato needed was a therapist and maybe some medication for his obvious depression. What he got instead was a whack of uber-power. And then a complete fucking mess ensued.
I will say I could PROBABLY find Sasuke interesting for similar reasons, except the manga doesn't seem to portray him as... being as Obviously Wrong. Pein is Obviously Wrong, obviously hypocritical, obviously grudge-wanking, and I'm 99% certain he'll renounce his beliefs before he dies ('cuz Kishi almost always sets up these kinds of ideologies so they can be renounced after Naruto beats the shit out of you), but Sasuke? Just keeps going on and on and on being the way he is, and the narrative encourages him.
And I find I can't even find this intriguing on ANY LEVEL.
Edit: Hmm, I also suppose I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect. However, lately, all this has been shoved aside, and I suspect it's because Kishi wants to make him as loathsome/hypocritical as possible so everyone will merrily root for Naruto.
I will say I could PROBABLY find Sasuke interesting for similar reasons, except the manga doesn't seem to portray him as... being as Obviously Wrong.
He IS Obviously Wrong and he does Obviously Wrong things and then the manga showers in in roses for it, and that, in a nutshell, is why I feel nothing but contempt for the boy, and utterly loathe Zuko comparisons.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
Well, in as much as Current Sasuke is impossible to like, by the same token, I don't see how mini!Sasuke could ever be disliked by anyone. Shame he had to grow up the way he did.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't even think Kishi has FORGOTTEN about these things; I think he just has a fucked up sense of priorities, plain and simple. Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience. To date, though, Kishi hasn't dropped the ball with Pein's interaction with Konan, I've thought (if anything, it's been strengthened by the last couple of chapters); if he screws that up for me, somehow, I'll be peeved.
I actually think non-massacre Sasuke would turn out to be a really sweet kid. Actually, that would make a great AU - where Naruto gets bitter from being treated like crap, Sasuke is all 'POWER OF LOVE WOOT!' and Sakura.... hmmm... Sakura would probably have a more overt slap slap kiss dynamic with Naruto and then fall for him and Sasuke would pine for her.
Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
LOL, bitter Naruto. That I'd like to see. And happy-go-lucky Sasuke. I suppose Sakura would still have developed similarly, but her crush on Sasuke might not have existed in the first place.
I got the sense that a lot of the girls just liked the guy because he was mysterious, but who knows. paperninja has a theory that the girls liked Sasuke because he was in a position of power and the oppressed will often want to align themselves with someone powerful to gain power, thus when Sakura became more self-actualizing, she got over Sasuke.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
It'd be the end of EVERYTHING for me, sigh. Of course, it's my OTP, so that's why, but even if I didn't 'ship the pairing hardcore, I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.
LOL, bitter Naruto. That I'd like to see. And happy-go-lucky Sasuke. I suppose Sakura would still have developed similarly, but her crush on Sasuke might not have existed in the first place.
It would be fun to see, and I agree that Sakura's crush on Sasuke probably wouldn't have ever happened. And I think paperninja is dead-on regarding Sasuke and his fangirls and Sakura getting over him.
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
WORD. That is reason 1,720 that killing Kakashi is Just Not Cool.
I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.
Not that Kishimoto's ever shot himself in the foot before..... But I do think you chances are really good. Honestly, BOTH Nagato and ....the other kid, who's name I'm blanking on, cared about and wanted to protect Konan (I'm partially inferring from Kishimoto's crappy representation of women), and if Pain was going to do something to hurt Konan, it would have happened by now. Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.
Yeah, Kakashi isn't dead... I'm quite sure of it, but Kishi faking people out this way and then dragging it out is pretty uncool as well. Actually, for me, it's probably worse, because it just makes everything look ridiculous. And it was pointless. Honestly, what's the sense in fucking with your readers that way? I mean, I can sort of get tricking you about motives as he did with Itachi, but fake-deaths are sooooo lame. Lame, lame, lamesauce.
Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.
That seems quite likely. Kishi claims Pein is "emotionless" (obviously very untrue); Konan seems pretty blatantly the key to his humanity. There'd be no point in establishing them as friends since they were children, otherwise.
If he'd just wanted to write about a guy and some hot chick who pined after him, he's shown he feels no compulsion to establish a reason why a girl should actually give a damn about a guy (Karin and Sasuke come to mind here), so Konan and Pein being close since forever ago makes me think this is relevant to their human sides+Pein's eventual breakdown+their deaths.
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
Yeah, Kakashi isn't dead... I'm quite sure of it, but Kishi faking people out this way and then dragging it out is pretty uncool as well.
Especially considering everything that's going on with Konoha. I mean, if you need to have your readers on pins and needles cause they're an endless training sequence going on, but when you actually have something INTERESTING to write.... why? Why toy with Kakashi's life like this?
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
The whole arc was just poorly reasoned. I thought Naruto's endless training sessions spliced alongside the utter destruction of Konoha made Naruto's training seem really frivolous, but now that we're told Pein has done very little damage (seemingly... by some ridiculous miracle), that seems frivolous, too, thus rendering the entire arc kinda pointless all the way around.
I really think you just nailed it: what we've seen up until now was just padded filler to allow for time for Naruto to train. But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
The whole arc was just poorly reasoned. I thought Naruto's endless training sessions spliced alongside the utter destruction of Konoha made Naruto's training seem really frivolous, but now that we're told Pein has done very little damage (seemingly... by some ridiculous miracle), that seems frivolous, too, thus rendering the entire arc kinda pointless all the way around.
See, I actually thought having actually interesting things going on while Naruto was training worked and felt real - right up until Pain did no damage. Having bad things happen to your friends while you're off trying to get stronger is classic - that his friends are now totally fine and Naruto is showing up just right in the nick of time makes it all feel totally cheap.
But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
Or how about PEOPLE ACTUALLY DIE and then you have that bitter irony of Naruto training and having fun while Konoha is getting wrecked? And I don't think even 8 year old boys care about the training sequences.
Except mini!Sasuke. I do like stories about Sasuke and Itachi when Sasuke was still mini!Sasuke, but that's mostly for his interaction with Itachi and the Uchiha dynamic and how that's a trainwreck waiting to happen.
See, for me I like villains I can respect. Once Pain become so hypocritical, I stopped respecting him, and thus, caring.
Fair enough. I enjoy Pein primarily for the same reason I enjoy Itachi -- that is, I find them to be interesting studies in how power didn't help them to have better lives.
You could say in many ways that this series puts forth that power is everything. But in Pein's case? His godlike powers are probably the worst thing that ever happened to him. If not for them, he would've had to grow up like a normal person, but there's no need to grow up when you can just stomp anyone who disagrees with you. What Nagato needed was a therapist and maybe some medication for his obvious depression. What he got instead was a whack of uber-power. And then a complete fucking mess ensued.
I will say I could PROBABLY find Sasuke interesting for similar reasons, except the manga doesn't seem to portray him as... being as Obviously Wrong. Pein is Obviously Wrong, obviously hypocritical, obviously grudge-wanking, and I'm 99% certain he'll renounce his beliefs before he dies ('cuz Kishi almost always sets up these kinds of ideologies so they can be renounced after Naruto beats the shit out of you), but Sasuke? Just keeps going on and on and on being the way he is, and the narrative encourages him.
And I find I can't even find this intriguing on ANY LEVEL.
Edit: Hmm, I also suppose I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect. However, lately, all this has been shoved aside, and I suspect it's because Kishi wants to make him as loathsome/hypocritical as possible so everyone will merrily root for Naruto.
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He IS Obviously Wrong and he does Obviously Wrong things and then the manga showers in in roses for it, and that, in a nutshell, is why I feel nothing but contempt for the boy, and utterly loathe Zuko comparisons.
That said, in the flashbacks when he was all round-cheeked and practicing his jutsus, I did enjoy him and find him kinda adorable.
I like that Pein is pretty nice to his co-workers and seems to show concern for their well-being. However, now that he's been shoved into the role of Main Villain (of the moment), I get the sense that Kishi is trying to downplay this, too. Like, before Pein was actually introduced, we were told his country saw him as a good leader, that he'd done a lot for them, and Jiraiya said he heard Pein always being spoken of with respect.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
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Well, in as much as Current Sasuke is impossible to like, by the same token, I don't see how mini!Sasuke could ever be disliked by anyone. Shame he had to grow up the way he did.
I miss that too. I liked gentlemanly villains or scarily competent ones, and at this point, Pain is neither.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't even think Kishi has FORGOTTEN about these things; I think he just has a fucked up sense of priorities, plain and simple. Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience. To date, though, Kishi hasn't dropped the ball with Pein's interaction with Konan, I've thought (if anything, it's been strengthened by the last couple of chapters); if he screws that up for me, somehow, I'll be peeved.
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I actually think non-massacre Sasuke would turn out to be a really sweet kid. Actually, that would make a great AU - where Naruto gets bitter from being treated like crap, Sasuke is all 'POWER OF LOVE WOOT!' and Sakura.... hmmm... Sakura would probably have a more overt slap slap kiss dynamic with Naruto and then fall for him and Sasuke would pine for her.
Portraying your villain's human side is MUCH LESS IMPORTANT than show-casing their z0mg bad-ass jutsu for the young boys in the audience.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
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I got the sense that a lot of the girls just liked the guy because he was mysterious, but who knows. paperninja has a theory that the girls liked Sasuke because he was in a position of power and the oppressed will often want to align themselves with someone powerful to gain power, thus when Sakura became more self-actualizing, she got over Sasuke.
...and if you're going to go that way, could you maybe have him kill some bitches? I mean, I had an entire LIST of characters who it would have been okay for Kishimoto to off. (Kakashi was nowhere near on that list.)
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
And if Kishimoto screws up the Pain/Konan relationship... that would be bad.
It'd be the end of EVERYTHING for me, sigh. Of course, it's my OTP, so that's why, but even if I didn't 'ship the pairing hardcore, I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.
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It would be fun to see, and I agree that Sakura's crush on Sasuke probably wouldn't have ever happened. And I think paperninja is dead-on regarding Sasuke and his fangirls and Sakura getting over him.
Not much point in killing Kakashi, since Kakashi's whole point is that he survives those close to him. Killing him defeats the tragedy of what he and Tsunade represent. But I'm 99% sure he isn't dead, anyway.
WORD. That is reason 1,720 that killing Kakashi is Just Not Cool.
I think their interaction adds a lot of interest to both characters and Kishi would be shooting himself in the foot if he screwed with that. He may not screw with it, though. He's already had plenty of time to ruin it somehow.
Not that Kishimoto's ever shot himself in the foot before..... But I do think you chances are really good. Honestly, BOTH Nagato and ....the other kid, who's name I'm blanking on, cared about and wanted to protect Konan (I'm partially inferring from Kishimoto's crappy representation of women), and if Pain was going to do something to hurt Konan, it would have happened by now. Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.
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Konan may die, but it's not going to be because of Pain, and I imagine if that happened, he'd go a wee bit crazy.
That seems quite likely. Kishi claims Pein is "emotionless" (obviously very untrue); Konan seems pretty blatantly the key to his humanity. There'd be no point in establishing them as friends since they were children, otherwise.
If he'd just wanted to write about a guy and some hot chick who pined after him, he's shown he feels no compulsion to establish a reason why a girl should actually give a damn about a guy (Karin and Sasuke come to mind here), so Konan and Pein being close since forever ago makes me think this is relevant to their human sides+Pein's eventual breakdown+their deaths.
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
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Especially considering everything that's going on with Konoha. I mean, if you need to have your readers on pins and needles cause they're an endless training sequence going on, but when you actually have something INTERESTING to write.... why? Why toy with Kakashi's life like this?
And I like the close-since-forever-ago thing... it annoys me how half the time, he makes girls have feelings for a guy for NO GOOD REASON. I'm always reminded of the scene wherein Sasuke slapped the apple out of Sakura's hand. Aggghhhh.
Total. Word.
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I really think you just nailed it: what we've seen up until now was just padded filler to allow for time for Naruto to train. But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
Reply
See, I actually thought having actually interesting things going on while Naruto was training worked and felt real - right up until Pain did no damage. Having bad things happen to your friends while you're off trying to get stronger is classic - that his friends are now totally fine and Naruto is showing up just right in the nick of time makes it all feel totally cheap.
But see, not being an eight-year-old boy, I don't care about Naruto's damn training; SURELY there could have been some better way of giving Naruto the power he needed for this fight without wasting so much time.
Or how about PEOPLE ACTUALLY DIE and then you have that bitter irony of Naruto training and having fun while Konoha is getting wrecked? And I don't think even 8 year old boys care about the training sequences.
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