V posted again...

[fierceawakening]

...and since I can't answer at her place, I'll answer here:

I've said repeatedly that I have my own problems with the concept "cisgendered" too. It is, as you say, rather sloppy, and it IS difficult to tell where the cutoff is supposed to be. I've said myself before that many people who aren't transgendered don't feel comfortable with their gender

Comments

[lisaquestions]

I just want to say that I haven't talked about "cisgender" in months. I only talk about cissexual (which I realize you don't firmly fit into either), so if she's complaining that I'm talking about cisgender anything, that's her own assumption.

The most demeaning, trivializing thing she said toward trans women, though?

You have your identity crisis and your anxieties, fine. I get that and I wish it wasnt so bad for you. But you arent the only ones, and frankly, id have begged to have such problems. So stop fucking shaking your labels around like they mean anything more than they do, we dont live in Disneyworld where dreams are all that matters. Youre stuck on creating labels for dreams that havent even been imagined properly yet, while Im stuck trying to deal with a few decades immersed in the dirt and violence of the most neglected and hated parts of a rich and judgmental society. Theres no reason we cant fumble on along next to each other without even acknowledging each other, because we dont share the same existence at all.
What

[fierceawakening]

I just want to say that I haven't talked about "cisgender" in months. I only talk about cissexual (which I realize you don't firmly fit into either), so if she's complaining that I'm talking about cisgender anything, that's her own assumption.

*nodsnods* The reason I didn't say that (though I really should've) is because where you quoted her the other day, she referred to "cis"; I wanted to address both just because "cissexual" hasn't really caught on and I highly doubt she'd be aware of the distinction. And... well, like I say here, I think that's part of the whole problem.

The other part being just plain ignorance/misguided rage.

And yeah, anyone who'd beg to be a trans woman because trans women have it so easy is, uh, obviously not a trans woman.

I just... well, I feel like just saying AGAIN "but the murders! what about the murders!" but... well, i said it once already. whether it sinks in really remains to be seen.

[lisaquestions]

Well, yeah. What you said was fine, I was adding.

I will be posting about this on QT, probably tomorrow. I'm really tired of this trivializing "I'm oppressed so I can't oppress you" victim mentality that radical feminism tends to foster, based on academic material about how gender is the root of all oppression (and yet somehow oppression of trans people doesn't count as gender oppression...odd, no?).

And yeah, the murder rate is somewhere between 8-16 times higher than the general population - and that's not even getting into other violence, and that's along with the general misogynist violence that all women - cis and trans - experience.

And how deeply offensive is it that apparently she thinks that trans women don't get raped or assaulted in the same ways that cis women do?

Fuck her ivory tower analysis of her own privilege.

[fierceawakening]

And how deeply offensive is it that apparently she thinks that trans women don't get raped or assaulted in the same ways that cis women do?

Yeah, the whole idea that rapists clock someone, stop, and wander off, because male privilege is this invincibility shield trans women never lose... well, it just makes me want to smack people whenever I hear it (and V isn't the only one who says it, lest this become one of those "AAAH A THREATTT!" dramaramas.)

[lisaquestions]

Considering how many trans women I know who are survivors of rape, child abuse, and domestic abuse, it really pisses me off that she uses those to prove anything about cis privilege.

I'm a survivor of two of those three - I've been fortunate enough to never be raped - but you will never see me use those to denounce my own privilege.

[fierceawakening]

Yeah. I was abused as a child too. I can't imagine bringing that up in situations where it's not relevant either.

[lisaquestions]

I outed myself the other day because someone compared my unwillingness to automatically trust all cis people as benevolent to perpetuating the cycle of child abuse.

So I was already angry about child abuse being used in trivializing ways to make an argument.

[lisaquestions]

And I know we're past "check your privilege" and well into "what an asshole" territory.

And Jesus, where did I say in my comments to you that she was lying about Debs? And was it just me or did she try to use Philomela as a token in explaining why we shouldn't trust Debs?

[fierceawakening]

I don't really understand the whole drama that happened -- from what I gather, people on this "side" were following it carefully, but I wasn't. I have a somewhat clearer picture now but not much of one.

And, really, I don't care. People's true colors eventually out. If I'm totally wrong and Debs is an icky nasty poo-poo head (sorry V but you really do sound like a third grader with all this nonsense) I'm sure I'll, you know, actually see her behave badly at some point.

So far, though, DEbs has consistently impressed me and V has consistently hit below the belt. I'm pretty sure who's the asshole just from how they conduct themselves, really.

[lisaquestions]

Yeah. I meant in your post, since she seemed to be calling both of us out for calling her a liar, when I don't think I said anything quite so blunt.

I did say that Debs' experiences were like those of other radfems who left the fold.

And this:

So far, though, DEbs has consistently impressed me and V has consistently hit below the belt. I'm pretty sure who's the asshole just from how they conduct themselves, really.

[belledame222]

and, really: "why am I always?" why am -I- always twisting things? wtf, v. fine, you meant that's what being a woman is about and that's what you feel you failed at. Yeah, I hear it: and uncomfortable in your skin. A lot of women are. For a lot of the reasons you mention. It's still not the same thing as being trans, okay? Trans people talk about this all the time. And yeah, okay, maybe I shouldn't have assumed this about you personally, but fact is, since you seem to be speaking in defense of radical feminism, a -lot- of talk about trans women is pretty devoted to the idea that they're only doing it to be "feminine;" what was that by Mary Sunshine? "Copy cats are better cats?" hell, there's Janice Raymond's entire oeuvre, speaking of "academic

[belledame222]

I mean, fine, I'm privileged, I've overstepped, I'll take that; but really, why don't you ask Lisa just how privileged she really is by the standards you've listed? Or Little Light? Or Galling Galla?

[belledame222]

well, you know, and also, rapists and stalkers stop at the door of the womens' bathroom or anywhere else they want to follow a woman because of the magical "F" on the doorway.

[fierceawakening]

Yep. It emanates awesome. Except once you LEAVE the bathroom you're doomed to endless miseries. Because you're a woman.

I vote we all just stay in the loo all day.

As long as it's safe from trans women.

[belledame222]

hey, worked for me all through K-12, that technique.

well, except for instead of "trans women," read "gym."