Oh, I love you, and I love this post. I could never have written it so eloquently, so I will just give you a *high five* and *+1* and tell you that from the beginning of the show, as I fell in love with the idea of Damon and Elena, I knew that he would never be fully redeemed (and certainly never could be after snapping Jeremy's neck) so the only way he and Elena can ever be together is if she goes somewhat dark. And I am totally okay with that, because I love them so.
Also, I don't think there are any *heroes* on the show now, well, except maybe for Jeremy! (Ha!) But I do believe they each do heroic things from time to time.
Again, *claps like a seal.* I really love this post. Thanks for sharing.
ETA: That Nietzsche quote is one of my all-time FAVES!
Yay, thank you! Yep, I honestly think that walking into this show even looking for things like "redemption" or whatever is something of a mistake because I don't know that that's what all of this is about? The show is actually doing a good job of deconstructing such ideas and the assumptions that go with them (see: Stefan Salvatore). And I am totally okay with everyone going darker. Basically, if everyone is up to their elbows in blood metaphorically or physically for one reason or another by the end of this show I WILL BE AS HAPPY AS A CLAM.
I think Stefan has always been a dark character, even before we knew anything about his past. distant_autumn once wrote a meta about all of Stefan's early S1 behavior that just brilliantly illustrated his Soft Predator Approach to everything, and then of course, they turned it all on its ear by revealing his past. I believe Ian said in an interview that Stefan had the potential of being as "bad" as Damon and Damon had the potential of being as "good" as Stefan. It's all so achingly complex it makes my brain cramp, it really does. But it's also why Elena will be torn between them--she's forgiven Damon for so much, it stands to reason she can eventually forgive Stefan, too. And that Elena can be forgiven for her bad choices, too.
Yup, and I think it's really starkly apparent when you look at Stefan that TVD is just breaking down the very idea of "redemption." Because what does it mean? Is there an endpoint or a time frame? Is it linear or does it spiral? What is the implication of it on behavior? Does it even exist as a thing? Why are we even talking about it? etc. etc. etc.
Stefan in season 1 grows creepier on each re-watch, and I kind of love it? The whole of the pilot is hilarious to me nowadays (I used to find it really tiresome) because you can see what a "soft predator" he is, he stalked her for three months! And it's supposed to make us question his initial positioning as this narrative's "hero" and the very idea of the word itself.
It's going to be one, big complicated and entertaining mess, that's for sure. I'm curious to see how the show will handle it, lol!
Yep, it's a complicated thing and it's easier and more interesting to revel in how complicated it is more than anything else for me, I think.
Very true, Damon is a Fool for Love, it is known. So I would be entirely surprised if he didn't happily try to reassure her in that moment because a) he's Damon and (b) it's not like he's going to sit around and judge her, where on earth would he find a pedestal given all he's done?
I agree, the show isn't always consistent but there are some good moments where characters call each other out explicitly for whatever reason.
FLAWLESS POST IS FLAWLESS!I did go into this with my mind well-made up: 'Compelling Jeremy was unacceptable. It is consistant with what I see as the uglier side of Elena's character, but unacceptable all the same.' Unlike most people, I don't Elena has gotten that much 'darker' per se, but that's another story
( ... )
LOL, yes, the compulsion was so terrible. As in, there is no reason to even think otherwise, it was a violation and I can't wait for it to blow up in everyone's faces - as these things often do on this show.
And, as you say, it's utterly consistent with who Elena is, and honestly puts out all of her flaws (but also some of her qualities) out on display for anyone with eyeballs to see--that's if they hadn't picked up on some of them already. Yes, I tend to agree with you, I think the moment we're introduced to the character, who is in mourning and obviously carrying the huge weight of personal guilt regarding her parents' deaths, it's clear that she's 'dark' in a lot of ways.
Thanks. And there's nothing like wallowing in complicated things for me, so yay!
Whoops I posted it twice. I was attempt to make the 'flawless post is flawless post' flash. I used to know the code for that. Apparently I don't anymore!
Blowing up in Elena's face, more like. It feels a bit like repetition as far as plotlines go (THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO GO WITH THE GILBERTS NOW FT. ALARIC) except I am holding out hope that this time, the situation will be more complicated because there is this whole new Alaric/Jeremy fatherly bonding dynadmic.
(but also some of her qualities)
Ehhh... I was going for flaws... Obviously qualities are subjective, I know that. But equally, what qualities?!
Yeah, IDK. Elena is an enigma sometimes. For example she didn't seem to care at all about the way in which Elena was treating Andie yet she brazenly tells Klaus that he doesn't have to hurt anyone.
I, personally, am not interested in lengthy discussions about the clear-cut “morality” of the choices these characters are making. Mostly because it’s often a fruitless, pointless discussion.
I agree. I do take issue with media generally when it glosses over terrible things, but really, I think TVD is surprisingly about criticizing its characters. (If it were holding up Damon as a *role model* I would take issue? But it's very clearly not.) And in this particular case, I thought it was very explicit about "they are doing a terrible thing that they know might come back to bite them and especially Jeremy, but they're not doing it for villainous reasons." I really love that comparison with Bonnie and Luka, by the way. I think Bonnie and Damon are a lot more similar than either of them would like to think.
But also because it oversimplifies things and it detracts from what I like to think is the more interesting discussion that we should be having: what drives a character to do certain things, specifically here, to make the choice to
( ... )
All of this. I share your issues on that front re: media. I love Damon very much, I identify with him a great deal too, but I don't aspire to BE him and I don't think that's what the show is doing--so I'm thankful for that.
And word, this instance was pretty obviously framed for what it was: terrible. I really can't wait for the fallout, like REALLY. If they play it right, it shall be amazing.
Bonnie's treatment of Luka is some of my favorite messed up stuff in season 2. I feel the same about her similarities to Damon, the show did that a lot with them in season 2 in ways that are really interesting.
Yes, exactly. I think this is clearest with Damon specifically, because it's situated in the episode where he's the most vulnerable he's ever been when it comes to the brother-love. The sibling relationships in particular are never shown as entirely good or bad, but realistically complicated and powerful and I quite viscerally understand why Elena would do it, and why Damon would valorize it. THIS. This show has some of the best
( ... )
I have nothing to add, lol. As you know you are the one who made me consider the show is presenting the complications, the darkness, of choice (whether that's having it or having it taken away from you) and love, and I'm not used to watching the show in that way just yet where what you've talked about is the overarching theme (or one of the themes? Idk) and colors each characters' choices, actions, and the way they deal with each other.
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Also, I don't think there are any *heroes* on the show now, well, except maybe for Jeremy! (Ha!) But I do believe they each do heroic things from time to time.
Again, *claps like a seal.* I really love this post. Thanks for sharing.
ETA: That Nietzsche quote is one of my all-time FAVES!
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Yay, thank you! Yep, I honestly think that walking into this show even looking for things like "redemption" or whatever is something of a mistake because I don't know that that's what all of this is about? The show is actually doing a good job of deconstructing such ideas and the assumptions that go with them (see: Stefan Salvatore). And I am totally okay with everyone going darker. Basically, if everyone is up to their elbows in blood metaphorically or physically for one reason or another by the end of this show I WILL BE AS HAPPY AS A CLAM.
Yep, yep.
Thanks for commenting!!
That quote is one of my favorite things of ever!
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I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
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Stefan in season 1 grows creepier on each re-watch, and I kind of love it? The whole of the pilot is hilarious to me nowadays (I used to find it really tiresome) because you can see what a "soft predator" he is, he stalked her for three months! And it's supposed to make us question his initial positioning as this narrative's "hero" and the very idea of the word itself.
It's going to be one, big complicated and entertaining mess, that's for sure. I'm curious to see how the show will handle it, lol!
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Yep, it's a complicated thing and it's easier and more interesting to revel in how complicated it is more than anything else for me, I think.
Very true, Damon is a Fool for Love, it is known. So I would be entirely surprised if he didn't happily try to reassure her in that moment because a) he's Damon and (b) it's not like he's going to sit around and judge her, where on earth would he find a pedestal given all he's done?
I agree, the show isn't always consistent but there are some good moments where characters call each other out explicitly for whatever reason.
Thank you :)
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LOL, yes, the compulsion was so terrible. As in, there is no reason to even think otherwise, it was a violation and I can't wait for it to blow up in everyone's faces - as these things often do on this show.
And, as you say, it's utterly consistent with who Elena is, and honestly puts out all of her flaws (but also some of her qualities) out on display for anyone with eyeballs to see--that's if they hadn't picked up on some of them already. Yes, I tend to agree with you, I think the moment we're introduced to the character, who is in mourning and obviously carrying the huge weight of personal guilt regarding her parents' deaths, it's clear that she's 'dark' in a lot of ways.
Thanks. And there's nothing like wallowing in complicated things for me, so yay!
Sometimes Nietzsche just speaks to my soul :D
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Blowing up in Elena's face, more like. It feels a bit like repetition as far as plotlines go (THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO GO WITH THE GILBERTS NOW FT. ALARIC) except I am holding out hope that this time, the situation will be more complicated because there is this whole new Alaric/Jeremy fatherly bonding dynadmic.
(but also some of her qualities)
Ehhh... I was going for flaws... Obviously qualities are subjective, I know that. But equally, what qualities?!
Yeah, IDK. Elena is an enigma sometimes. For example she didn't seem to care at all about the way in which Elena was treating Andie yet she brazenly tells Klaus that he doesn't have to hurt anyone.
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I agree. I do take issue with media generally when it glosses over terrible things, but really, I think TVD is surprisingly about criticizing its characters. (If it were holding up Damon as a *role model* I would take issue? But it's very clearly not.) And in this particular case, I thought it was very explicit about "they are doing a terrible thing that they know might come back to bite them and especially Jeremy, but they're not doing it for villainous reasons." I really love that comparison with Bonnie and Luka, by the way. I think Bonnie and Damon are a lot more similar than either of them would like to think.
But also because it oversimplifies things and it detracts from what I like to think is the more interesting discussion that we should be having: what drives a character to do certain things, specifically here, to make the choice to ( ... )
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And word, this instance was pretty obviously framed for what it was: terrible. I really can't wait for the fallout, like REALLY. If they play it right, it shall be amazing.
Bonnie's treatment of Luka is some of my favorite messed up stuff in season 2. I feel the same about her similarities to Damon, the show did that a lot with them in season 2 in ways that are really interesting.
Yes, exactly. I think this is clearest with Damon specifically, because it's situated in the episode where he's the most vulnerable he's ever been when it comes to the brother-love. The sibling relationships in particular are never shown as entirely good or bad, but realistically complicated and powerful and I quite viscerally understand why Elena would do it, and why Damon would valorize it. THIS. This show has some of the best ( ... )
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I have nothing to add, lol. As you know you are the one who made me consider the show is presenting the complications, the darkness, of choice (whether that's having it or having it taken away from you) and love, and I'm not used to watching the show in that way just yet where what you've talked about is the overarching theme (or one of the themes? Idk) and colors each characters' choices, actions, and the way they deal with each other.
So I just keep reading!
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Thanks, hon!
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