I've never been able to work out why Cordy/Jasmine wanted Angelus back, especially since Jasmine seemed perfectly happy with Angel.
Oh, one minor quibble, Cordy does state her belief in the separation of Angel and Angelus as early as AtS1. I put this down to her really not liking the idea of working for a psychotic killer.
And I don't know why Jasmine wanted Angelus either - it's my major quibble with the whole thing. He's apparently *crucial*, but I've still to see anyone explain why.
Cordy does state her belief in the separation of Angel and Angelus as early as AtS1 Gah! It's been far too long since I've watched AtS. But your explanation sounds very sensible - knowing that your boss has an evil alter ego has got to be unsettling. Especially for her - Doyle was half-deomn, Wesley was a watcher, Gunn a skilled vamp killer, but Cordy was rather lacking when it came to fighting.
And I don't know why Jasmine wanted Angelus either - it's my major quibble with the whole thing. He's apparently *crucial*, but I've still to see anyone explain why. It's the same situation with Spike and the First. What does the First want Spike for? To kill a few Sunnydale residents and turn them? Seems to me that the vamps of Sunnydale were already doing that quite well themselves. I suspect they (Angel & Spike) needed to be shoe horned into the plot and ME was hoping nobody would realize that they hadn't come up with a good explanation.
So - I propose that the whole thing was an elaborate plot to enable Cordy/Jasmine to steal Angel's soul
That's always been my assumption! I always assumed that the "Two separate personalities" thing is Angel's human friends way of dealing with season two (BTVS). And when I rewatched season two one thing that stood out to me is that Dru and Spike call him "Angel"; not "Angelus". Frankly I never got the impression that Angel himself believed the two personalities thing; but that he was willing to go along with it as it made things easier for Cordy and Fred (possibly Wes and Gun?).
Well yes and no... Spike greets him as 'Angelus' in School Hard, but in f.ex.'Innocence' and 'B, B &B' they use 'Angel':
Judge: There's no humanity in him. (turns and goes) Angelus: (faces Spike) I couldn't have said it better myself. Drusilla: Angel. Angelus: Yeah, baby. I'm back.
~
Angelus: Happy Valentine's Day, Dru. Drusilla: Oh... (holds her hands over the heart) Angel!
Well yes and no... Spike greets him as 'Angelus' in School Hard, but in f.ex.'Innocence' and 'B, B &B' they use 'Angel':
Ok. But when Spike greeted him in SH my impression was that he called him "Angelus" as a ploy to go along with Angel's rouse that he was his evil old self again.
Since I haven't watched the relevant episodes in S3 and AtS 4 in so long I can't cite specific examples now, but if I can tear myself away from my Deadwood S2 DVD long enough to skim through some before this topic gets too stale I will. (This weekend is going to be super busy though.) I seem to remember Angel often being referred to as Angelus while he's unsouled, and that in AtS S4 after his soul is restored to him that he apologizes to everyone for what Angelus did and everyone reassuring him that it wasn't his fault. But don't hold me to what my vague memory tells me - I need to watch again to get the right of it - - or, check out some transcripts if I have the time at work.
That completely makes sense. And I'm pretty sure that Angel says something when he's first telling Buffy about the Gypsy curse like, "You don't know what it's like to have done what I've done...and to remember all of it." (I'll have to watch the "Angel" ep again...I may be making it up.) So an explanation of the Beast memory lapse is in order, and yours totally works...
I always sort of resented, on Spike's behalf, the fact that no one assumes that he's a different person when he has a soul, at least in terms of naming. Even though he had really done much less to harm Buffy and the Scoobies than Angel/Angelus did. I think it was really a case of "first impressions"--souled Angel was the first one they met, so "Angelus" was an aberration; soulless Spike was the first one they met, so that was who he really WAS, to them. (Admittedly, Spike made a HELL of a first impression.)
I know the quote you mean, but it goes a little differently. I think what you're actually thinking of is this one, from 'Five by Five'. (Angel speaking to Darla, just after getting his soul:
"Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed - and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one. (Darla walks up to him) Help me."
And yes I see what you're saying about Spike and Angel, and I guess I agree - although they're always a bit hesitant around Angel in S3...
I can't really comment on your Angel/Angelus theory, because I'm ashamed to say lack of Spikey goodness has lead me to not bother watching AtS up until now. However - I'm going to put that right over the summer :) It sounds very neat, though.
I've always had a problem with Angel/Angelus versus souled!Spike/souless!Spike. I guess I've tended to concentrate on the Spike side of things - Spike is an anomoly for some undefined reason (William's nature and some deep strength of character that carries over to Spike or whatever), whereas Angelus is a particularly nasty version of your standard vampire; particularly nasty partly because his template is Liam. Where this falls down is why is Angel such a good guy (mostly)? Why doesn't his Liam persona shine through here, too? I've heard it suggested that the soul that he was cursed with wasn't, in fact, Liam's. So - he got a better one? Hmmm. We know Spike got his soul back, because Lurky said "we will give you back your soul" or whatever. But Angel? Which gets us into
( ... )
The banner is AWESOME! (Have you seen 'In The Dark'? btw)
not bother watching AtS up until now Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! That is bad! Veeeeery bad! But - there is SO much good stuff waiting for you. :) (Like S3 of Buffy has almost no Spike, but Faith and The Mayor are totally brilliant!) Prepare yourself for falling for Angel - because he is so much better on his own show
( ... )
Umm... has anyone ever mentioned the word 'obssessed' to you? ;) My husband - every day? *g* Although a lot of those words are quotes and stuff. If anyone makes it to the end I should give them a sticker or something!
Alas, no more pretty for me - I must go pick up children from school...
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I've never been able to work out why Cordy/Jasmine wanted Angelus back, especially since Jasmine seemed perfectly happy with Angel.
Oh, one minor quibble, Cordy does state her belief in the separation of Angel and Angelus as early as AtS1. I put this down to her really not liking the idea of working for a psychotic killer.
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And I don't know why Jasmine wanted Angelus either - it's my major quibble with the whole thing. He's apparently *crucial*, but I've still to see anyone explain why.
Cordy does state her belief in the separation of Angel and Angelus as early as AtS1
Gah! It's been far too long since I've watched AtS. But your explanation sounds very sensible - knowing that your boss has an evil alter ego has got to be unsettling. Especially for her - Doyle was half-deomn, Wesley was a watcher, Gunn a skilled vamp killer, but Cordy was rather lacking when it came to fighting.
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It's the same situation with Spike and the First. What does the First want Spike for? To kill a few Sunnydale residents and turn them? Seems to me that the vamps of Sunnydale were already doing that quite well themselves.
I suspect they (Angel & Spike) needed to be shoe horned into the plot and ME was hoping nobody would realize that they hadn't come up with a good explanation.
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And I guess it was silly shoe horning Angelus into S4, but it was fun too. I just wish I could fanwank it away somehow...
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That's always been my assumption! I always assumed that the "Two separate personalities" thing is Angel's human friends way of dealing with season two (BTVS). And when I rewatched season two one thing that stood out to me is that Dru and Spike call him "Angel"; not "Angelus". Frankly I never got the impression that Angel himself believed the two personalities thing; but that he was willing to go along with it as it made things easier for Cordy and Fred (possibly Wes and Gun?).
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They did call him Angelus (hitting the first, rather than the second syllable), after he lost his soul and moved into the factory.
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Judge: There's no humanity in him. (turns and goes)
Angelus: (faces Spike) I couldn't have said it better myself.
Drusilla: Angel.
Angelus: Yeah, baby. I'm back.
~
Angelus: Happy Valentine's Day, Dru.
Drusilla: Oh... (holds her hands over the heart) Angel!
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Ok. But when Spike greeted him in SH my impression was that he called him "Angelus" as a ploy to go along with Angel's rouse that he was his evil old self again.
Since I haven't watched the relevant episodes in S3 and AtS 4 in so long I can't cite specific examples now, but if I can tear myself away from my Deadwood S2 DVD long enough to skim through some before this topic gets too stale I will. (This weekend is going to be super busy though.) I seem to remember Angel often being referred to as Angelus while he's unsouled, and that in AtS S4 after his soul is restored to him that he apologizes to everyone for what Angelus did and everyone reassuring him that it wasn't his fault. But don't hold me to what my vague memory tells me - I need to watch again to get the right of it - - or, check out some transcripts if I have the time at work.
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Actually that's what more or less what I've always presumed - ever since it became clear that Cordy was not herself, so to speak!
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I always sort of resented, on Spike's behalf, the fact that no one assumes that he's a different person when he has a soul, at least in terms of naming. Even though he had really done much less to harm Buffy and the Scoobies than Angel/Angelus did. I think it was really a case of "first impressions"--souled Angel was the first one they met, so "Angelus" was an aberration; soulless Spike was the first one they met, so that was who he really WAS, to them. (Admittedly, Spike made a HELL of a first impression.)
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"Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed - and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one. (Darla walks up to him) Help me."
And yes I see what you're saying about Spike and Angel, and I guess I agree - although they're always a bit hesitant around Angel in S3...
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I can't really comment on your Angel/Angelus theory, because I'm ashamed to say lack of Spikey goodness has lead me to not bother watching AtS up until now. However - I'm going to put that right over the summer :) It sounds very neat, though.
I've always had a problem with Angel/Angelus versus souled!Spike/souless!Spike. I guess I've tended to concentrate on the Spike side of things - Spike is an anomoly for some undefined reason (William's nature and some deep strength of character that carries over to Spike or whatever), whereas Angelus is a particularly nasty version of your standard vampire; particularly nasty partly because his template is Liam. Where this falls down is why is Angel such a good guy (mostly)? Why doesn't his Liam persona shine through here, too? I've heard it suggested that the soul that he was cursed with wasn't, in fact, Liam's. So - he got a better one? Hmmm. We know Spike got his soul back, because Lurky said "we will give you back your soul" or whatever. But Angel? Which gets us into ( ... )
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not bother watching AtS up until now
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! That is bad! Veeeeery bad! But - there is SO much good stuff waiting for you. :) (Like S3 of Buffy has almost no Spike, but Faith and The Mayor are totally brilliant!) Prepare yourself for falling for Angel - because he is so much better on his own show ( ... )
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Looking forward to this, to:
(6000 words and counting. *headdesk*)
Umm... has anyone ever mentioned the word 'obssessed' to you? ;)
*hides the pile of WIPS and Spike-related musings under the sofa*
I happen to have a house to tidy...
Me too. But palying with the pretty toys is so much more fun :)
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My husband - every day? *g* Although a lot of those words are quotes and stuff. If anyone makes it to the end I should give them a sticker or something!
Alas, no more pretty for me - I must go pick up children from school...
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