Sad Panda Cuddle Piles
There are lots. As always, all comments taken from The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5. Sound bytes are from the Down Below Sound Archive.
Conflicts of Interest:
"BTW, there's another example of a long single take coming up soon, on Epsilon 3, which is all I'll specify. I kinda wanted the scene to play itself out, without cutting, and to show just how amazingly capable some of our actors can be. We're talking here almost 4 minutes of footage, not one cut in the whole thing, very fast dialogue, and not a single muffed line, with the performances working wonderfully. You'll know it when you see it."
Oh, that scene. It is extremely amusing. Poor Ivanova. Zathras is hard to deal with on the best days. Especially when he's talking to dirt.
"Re: Daffy...I knew that cartoon, and had that definitely in mind when I wrote the script. Took some maneuvering to get WB to let us use that much of it."
We are very glad that you did. Because it's very apropos. And foreshadowing. And heartbreaking when put in this context. Garibaldi. T_T
"Re: the cartoon...I'm a big WB cartoon fan, and knew that one very well, and there were two places where it would've fit with the story; the other one, which I almost used, was when you see two Daffy's arguing with each other."
You devious person you. XD I really liked that cartoon actually. It was one of my favorites.
"Lise was the typical "woman in distress."
Re: Lise...well, everybody can't be a fighter; we've had guys and the occasional female character who isn't used to being shot at. I daresay I'm not terribly used to being shot at, and someone who's mainly a civilian would probably react about that same way. It's just a matter of showing that diversity realistically rather than saying, "Okay, let's have a helpless female now." Having every female (or male) hard-nosed and laughing off PPG bursts is as unrealistic as its opposite."
*raises eyebrow* You're going to accuse JMS of sexist tropes? Considering this is the fourth season and all and it's the first time we've really seen it, I'm prepared to take him on his word for this one. There's also the fact Lise isn't a large part of the series and the fact that she's clearly been shown as a business woman in this episode, I don't think she's 'just a helpless female'.
And here's where Garibaldi's storyline goes from bad to worse. T_T
Rumors, Bargains and Lies:
"Ivanova looked like she was reading from a teleprompter.
Yeah, we had Claudia use a teleprompter there to add to the sense of having to read something...and enjoy the happy-go-lucky Sheridan...it's the last you'll see of him for a long time...."
That amuses me for some reason. They had her use an actual teleprompter for realism. XD Also, Sheridan... *sniffles*
"Lennier seems to be doing more peacemaking than Delenn. Is he the real bridge between races? Why does the religious caste follow Delenn?
No, I wouldn't say Lennier is a bridge in any sense along those lines.
Delenn, you must understand, is a True Seeker, and among the religious caste there isn't much more admirable than that...combined with the fact that she *did* fulfill prophecy, she *was* the chosen of Dukhat, she *did* help end the Shadow War...yeah, she's had some problems here and there, but what important leader doesn't? Any one of those items would be a sufficient crown on a lifetime of achievement...the cumulative effect is quite daunting and impressive."
I feel like True Seeker should be a title of some sort in every day life. Also, further proof Delenn is BAMF, if you were some how sleeping during her "Be someplace else" speech. Males fulfilling prophecy? Pft. Delenn trumps all of you. And yes, I do love that it's her fulfilling prophecy rather than Sheridan. Sheridan has his own Vorlon issues. Usually ending in death when Z'ha'dum is involved.
"Are Lennier's patience, humor, and devotion unique?
No, many Minbari share in those traits."
It didn't feel like those traits were mutually exclusive? I mean, Neroon and Draal have both had senses of humor. Maybe Neroon has lacked patience, but he's warrior caste, so we can forgive that. And devotion... Is there a single Minbari who isn't devoted to some cause? Whether it's to their clan or to faith, Minbari are almost scary devoted.
"How did Londo see an Earth sitcom if all broadcasts to B5 are being jammed?
Easy. The incident Londo is mentioning happened prior to the blackout. He never said it *just* happened, he said the *last* time Rebo and Zooty did their routine, everybody was doing it."
Besides, Rebo and Zooty are just that awesome that they can get passed the jammers. Obliviously.
"Were Rebo and Zooty references to real people?
No, not intended as tributes to anyone, just a cool sounding pair of names (but also annoying sounding)."
Uh-huh. Sure. But let's face it, Penn and Teller playing them in season five was awesome.
Nerooooooooooooooooon. I love Neroon. I am sad there's not much else said about this episode. It's a fun one. I mean, all the Londo snark. I have missed the Londo snark. And the Garibaldi snark. But that's a whole nother story.
Moments of Transition:
From the notes:
"Cartoonist Scott Adams, creator of the "Dilbert" comic strip, has a cameo appearance in this episode. A press release about his appearance is available.
Mr. Adams' lost dog and cat are no doubt a reference to the characters of Dogbert and Catbert from the comic strip. Dogbert is constantly scheming to take over the world."
:o I never connected that. That's actually hilarious. A pretty clever cameo.
"In response to an earlier JMS message saying the cruiser wasn't the Agamemnon
I have to recant my correction.
The image as shown in the monitor was supposed to be shown *only* on the monitor, not blown up. The animators figured, it'll be too small to read the name on it, so we may as well grab a ship out of the library rather than building a new one (a sensible choice)...but when John and I got into editing, we grabbed the original video and did that close-up...and neither of us, NObody, ever even noticed the Aggy name until after it was mentioned here...and I then checked, and to my chagrin, it was there.
But in true Soviet Revisionist fashion, you can be assured that down the road, this will mysteriously be replaced by another shot...."
In Soviet Narn, the mistake makes you. I wonder if this is one of the ones we still have on tape somewhere, so that I could go find the goof. Oh, days before the DVD's were released. I just about killed some of those tapes. We're not talking bought tapes either, but ones recorded on the VCR.
"How does this story relate to G'Kar's speech?
In a way, it was the second half of G'Kar's sentence...that life can be broken down into moments of transition and moments of revelation...and there with Neroon at the end we had both."
Nerooooooooooooon. T_T We will miss him.
"Did he really realize he belonged in the religious caste, or did he just do it for Delenn's sake?
Whether it was true or not, he knew his actions would bring the castes back together...so out of respect for the dead, best to leave the issue unresolved, and accept his gesture for what it was."
T_T I think it's true. Because Neroon is that awesome, that he can multitask his death and divine revelations at the same time. Plus, he enjoyed flirting with Delenn far too much.
"What was wrong with Walter Koenig's hand?
As for Walter...he made the decision to play Bester with a deformed or useless hand, which he's compensating for as a teep."
Let's face it... Bester compensates for a lot more than just his hand.
"Then how does he put his gloves on?
Ask Walter."
*Snickers* Though really, that's old news. He's had the hand thing since the first season. If this is the first time you're noticing, you need to pay more attention.
"What's been great about B5 has been the chance to give many talented actors like Walter and others a chance to show the many other hues and colors they are capable of delivering, but which were rarely seen because the material didn't allow them the opportunity. I know Walter's loved it, and it's been great for us as well."
Besides, Bester snark is the best snark. I'm glad he was Bester, even if we really hated him for the Garibaldi thing. >.>
"Did Delenn's instructions include a message for Sheridan?
Almost certainly."
You and your death messages...
"The Grey Council stucture, visually, is designed to bring the Starfire wheel to mind. Valen, being something of a smart cookie, figured it would be wise to tie in whatever he was doing to the traditions that preceded him. So they're arranged in a circle, with a series of lights above them, and the one central light (for Dukhat, for instance) reserved for the one who had endured and grown to leadership, but through a somewhat less violent means."
Sneaky Sinclair knows how to play his cards. XD
""Finally, the diversity of cultures on Babylon 5 must be a satisfaction for you as a writer to have so many different voices to express. "MoT" for me was almost like seguing between playwrights -- Damon Runyan (Garibaldi) to Oscar Wilde (Bester) to Aeschylus (Minbar). One of the things I have found most appealing about Babylon 5 as a whole is that the language is similar to the language of the stage. That seems rare in a television milieu defined for the most part by diseases-of-the-week, talk-show spew and courtroom maneuverings."
Yeah, I like that part a lot, being able to write in lots of different voices, lots of different styles. You have to remember that I cut my teeth writing dialogue back when I was writing plays and getting them produced. I love theater, love plays, and love really well done or rich dialogue. So it echoes that now...which as you say isn't necessarily the style of dialogue seen on most television (which is why a few react weirdly to it), but I like it, and it's my show...."
We definitely like it too. It's probably part of the reason I have the monologue gene, since no one else in my family really monologues. I've been having issues keeping the Avengers from monologuing, actually... I can't help it. Monologues are fun. Totally under-rated nowadays too. T_T
"Lyta refused to scan Garibaldi, but was willing to scan the Centauri in "Passing Through Gethsemane."
Yes, it's an inconsistency; because humans are inconsistent. But it's only an inconsistency subject to Lyta's rationalizations...which are quite reasonable.
She didn't know the Centauri; she knew Garibaldi...they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brother Edward's *life* was in jeapordy, and that this person may hold the key to saving his life and every instant they waited meant he could be dying, whereas there is no such crisis in the Garibaldi situation...they were able to hide her identity from the Centauri whereas they would not be able to do so with her and Garibaldi....
The decision to scan or not to scan is essentially a moral or ethical decision. When someone's life is on the line, that raises one ethical concern, as opposed to Zack just having a vague suspicion about Garibaldi's character and asking her to engage in a fishing expedition. There is a quantum difference between the two of them.
Would a physician give someone the tools necessary to end his life? No. Would he do so if the person were chronically ill and in constant, terrible pain? Very possibly. It's the *context*. You can't expect people to act the same in every situation regardless of context, context is everything.
People are not robots, they rationalize, they are inconsistent, but they generally have *reasons* for it that they can justify. As somebody once said, rationalizations are more important than sex, because you can *go* a day without sex.... [Ed. note: this is a quote from "The Big Chill."]"
That is an interesting quote. Also, totally understandable reasoning. Plus, I seem to remember her protesting the first case too before it was explained to her.
Garibaldi. T_T Neroon. T_T T_T FEELS. Curse you, season four. Granted, the scene that breaks my heart the most is actually in season five, but hey.
No Surrender, No Retreat:
"Why don't we ever see Clark?
I wanted to keep Clark more a force than a person...and Vir has just been off doing his usual Vir stuff...he's back this coming week."
It's more fun to hate him that way. Also, easier to build him up without the chance of 'disappointing' us when the whole thing finally ends.
"Proxima 3 is in the Proxima Centauri system, next door to Proxima 2, but no one goes there because the tourist season is way too short."
I'll keep that in mind while planning my next vacation.
""were these White Stars tired or something? I would've expected that a couple of them could just go slice-slice, sever the rotating sections on the EA ships and have 'em for breakfast."
Sure, if all you're interested in is slaughtering the opposition...they were designed for "destroy"...when you have to pull your punches to avoid just going in and killing EVERYthing in sight...which will only work *against* you in the long run, it becomes more difficult."
*blinks* There's another thing I'd have thought was obvious, but hey. Apparently not.
"There were a lot of ethical decisions on all sides, something you don't usually see in military SF. Were you in the military?
No, I wasn't in the military, just having missed the Vietnam draft. The points you mention are all the ones I wanted to get into with that episode, and the ones a lot of folks have overlooked in suggesting that it should have been an episode about slicing-and-dicing the enemy (the enemy in this case being our own species). The show, at root, is about ethics, among other things, and the ethical choices will continue to get more difficult the deeper you go. There is a very fine line that Sheridan's walking in all this."
A wild intelligent commenter appears! I like that Sheridan tries to save as many people as he can, and I think the show does a good job of showing the troubles of civil wars.
"It's certainly an issue I care about quite a lot, and the delicate balance between orders and conscience, between what you think you should be doing vs. what you feel you *must* do, is the heart of 99% of all drama."
Drama is important. We must all have drama. And angst. Because being cruel to the characters is fun. <3
"The Londo/G'Kar stuff was nifty...and yes, he's struggling toward redemption as best he can, making a real effort, which is important, because if he's going to end up with a Keeper on him eventually, as we've seen, best to feel for him, which you can't if he's a bad guy.
Set 'em up, knock 'em down...."
.... I hate you. Just so you know. Not that I wouldn't have done anything differently, but still. So much hate.
Wow, lots of short commentaries... Things are getting heated up with the Civil War. Have some snark to make up for the shortness. Snark always helps.
The Exercise of Vital Powers:
"One thing on the line Wade speaks...the actor consistently got the line wrong. It read, "Everything is illusion, Mr. Garibaldi; constructs of light, language, metaphor," rather than concepts.
There is a subtle but distinct difference."
Oops. Sometimes that happens. I hate it when the line just doesn't want to come out right no matter how much you practice it.
Er... wow. There really isn't a lot on this one. I shall just sit here and cry over Garibaldi some more, shall I? T_T
The Face of the Enemy:
This episode has a major spoiler warning. Also, major sad panda cuddle pile warning. Yes, we were all silly enough to change our nicks to SadPandas 1, 2, and 3. But the cuddle piles were needed.
"One thing I've been doing with the latter part of season 4 is to experiment a little more, try different things. I feel that we need to push visually to try new things, the sort of visual techniques you don't see much in SF-TV, which for the most part is fairly prosaic as these things go. And to push the writing, to try some things that may succeed, or may fail, but you learn something either way. In its way, next week's ep is just as experimental, but in a very different direction."
Not to mention breaking our hearts with Garibaldi. >.>
"Zimbalist did a great job for us...he took huge gobs of exposition and not only delivered them, he made them interesting."
He definitely had one of those distinguishable voices. It's one you recognize.
"""The Face of the Enemy" might represent the flipside of young Delenn's claim in "Atonement" that the most dangerous enemy is the one you know nothing about. Now the face of the enemy is the one you know all too well, one which you take for granted until it's revealed that the face is actually a mask."
Yep. It's one thing facing implacable, vast enemies...it's quite another when you friend betrays you. That's personal."
Garibaldi. T_T
"There isn't that much direct, personal violence in the show. My feeling is that if you do that a lot, it loses any potential for impact. You only pull out that card when you really need it, to best effect...don't waste it. It's like harsh language, after you've heard someone going on using all the more remarkable Anglo-Saxon words for a while, it loses all impact."
That's exactly how I feel about cuss words. Though I'm not sure if losing at video games counts as impactful. It is generally when I'm the most frustrated though.
""I thought the fight was a bit too long for much the same reason as you. All I can suggest is that John's metabolism isn't "normal" any more, and perhaps this had an effect. (And maybe the bullyboys were doing less damage than we think, simply to prolong the "fun".)"
1) It was for dramatic/stylistic effect. Not everything done with some style has to have a scientific explanation.
2) Having been mugged myself, time expands and slows down.
3) It's the TV cliche that fights are over in a second. Ask anyone who's ever been in a real knock-down fight. It goes on a heck of a lot longer than we showed here. When I got mugged it went on for 10 minutes.
One of the ironies in other messages on this (not this one here specifically) is that some have noted the fast-paced editing, which is supposedly associated with music video/short attention span material...and then turn around and say it wasn't over fast enough."
I didn't think the fight went on too long. Plus I liked the slow motion cameras on the fight scene combined with the lighting. Personally, I thought it was rather effective.
"Why mess Edgars' place up so thoroughly?
They wanted it to look like it was done by the Resistance; too much "attention" to his death would've drawn attention to the Corps."
Oh, the Resistance. Everyone's scapegoat. Poor Marsies. Granted, the extremists are quite scary...
"Why haven't the other races had conflict between their telepaths and their normals?
Obviously some, like the Minbari, dealt with it more easily than others; and in some places it came through Vorlon interference, while in others it came about naturally."
That's an interesting question. Now I kind of want to know how it happened in the Centauri court, because I'm betting that involves lots of intrigue. I think Earth was one of those that would have needed Vorlon interference, except now they're not here to give it and the Shadows messed around a bit much.
""Franklin and Number One seem to have cooled their relationship. Any further developments in the works here?"
Any more personal stuff got set aside when Franklin showed up a) with another female, and b) she was a teep. When #1 calms down, they might take another shot at it."
Franklin gets around. We won't go into my mother's off hand comment about having slept with him during our B5 campaign, or Adam being completely thrown off by the comment. XD
""Lastly, there is a bit of irony in the fact that the stage for Sheridan's capture is set when he steps aboard his old ship, the Agamemnon. Agamemnon was the supreme commander of the Greek forces at Troy, who survived that long war, but who was betrayed and murdered by his wife when he returned home. He blindly and arrogantly stepped into a trap, as Sheridan also seemed to do."
Yeah...that's one of many reasons why I picked that image/reference. It plays on a LOT of levels in the story."
Oh, the Aggy. Except, I've never felt a lick of sympathy for Agamemnon. Clytemnestra, sure, but Agamemnon? Yeah, the guy was an ass. Sorry. Completely missed that pity train.
Garibaldi. T_T He really is one of my favorites in the series. Cy has her G'kar flails, I can cry over Garibaldi. And JMS just doesn't leave him alone either. T_T
Intersections in Real Time:
From the Notes:
"The interrogator mentioned that Sheridan had been interrogated once before. That referred to "Comes the Inquisitor," in which Sheridan was interrogated by Jack the Ripper (played by Wayne Alexander, who played the Drazi in this episode.)"
Well, that's a mind fuck right there. Damn. Never connected that one.
"About the title
Each act took place in real time, no time jumps...the conversation happened as it happened. Since you had act breaks in between them, those became intersections...in real time."
Clever.
"I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4 episodes forward, really. You'll understand when you see it."
Hm. I don't think this would have made a very good season end, to be honest. I would have liked a bit more of Ivanova in charge though. That would have been awesome.
"Actually, one episode coming up in this batch is, according to John Copeland, the single most subversive thing we've ever done on the show. It's a *mean* episode and completely, unabashedly underhanded in its way of illuminating certain things. While, oddly enough, ending in a positive fashion, despite George Johnsen's comment at playback during the audio mix, "Okay, what sadistic m-----f----- wrote this thing?"
Eh, I thought Rock Cried Out was better, but then, I'm not overly fond of this episode to begin with. So.
""You understand the concepts of breaking down a human psyche."
(shrugs) Well, sure...I work for Warner Bros."
Touché.
"Why do people do end-of-season cliffhangers?
It's basically a means to get the audience, which has been away for a long time, to come back to resolve a hanging point and jump-start them into the episodes. If it ends cleanly, apparently a lot of folks in any series will just forget to tune in the following season."
Also, because they are fun and writers are a sadistic lot. I'm assuming this questioner doesn't know a lot of writers.
"Was the Drazi really there? He was played by the same actor who played Jack.
The Drazi was really there...has to be, or the ep loses some of its teeth. And yeah, we kinda liked the symmetry of Wayne being in this ep."
You just wanted to mess with our heads in numerous ways, don't lie.
"Yes, the Drazi was working with the EA the whole time, rendering Sheridan's "victory" impotent."
Screw you, victory. Never needed you in the first place.
"Why doesn't Clark just have Bester reprogram Sheridan?
Because they don't want him reprogrammed; as William says, another teep could see that he'd been altered. They want him *sincerely broken*. Not just rewired.
And yeah, I wanted this to function almost as a play in structure. In fact, when we shot it, we did it in full-act chunks. The actors would come in in the morning, rehearse it as they would a play, then we'd shoot it the way we'd shoot a play, straight through."
Which is actually one of the more impressive bits of this episode. Those were some long scenes.
"Did Sheridan say very little to avoid giving the interrogator anything to use against him?
That's one reason (among many) that I kept Sheridan silent for the most part; a) because the less he says the better overall from his position, and b) the audience would want to respond for him."
I like that second reason. Too bad it's not one I'd really get to use too often, since I tend to be overly think-y with my characters, but I suppose I could do it with the non-POV character.
"The interrogator looked like an ordinary person.
Exactly. The banal face of evil. You look at most of the guys who ran Treblinka, or Bergen-Belsen, and they're largely ordinary looking guys, who could be accountants or repair men or car salesmen. They're *us*...and this was designed to remind us of that. The evil, mustache-twirling villain is too easy, and too far from the truth of it."
But car salesman are evil. Ordinary people sort of faces are fun to mess with though. Why do you think everyone likes Coulson? XD
"This was one of the elements that made the episode interesting for me; most SF tends to ignore the darker sides of the common person. They deal with the big bad guys, the evil federations and Darth Vaders and all the other major forces out there, but all too often the real damage is done not by the single Evil Leader, but by the ten million people who *follow* him, the bookkeepers who track the bodies and the trains and the pain by placing the right figures in all the right columns, who make the trains run on time, who run the gulags, who build the new state empires that will be built with slave labor, any or all of whom could say, as many have, "I was just doing my job."
Not so much "following orders," we've heard that before, applied to the military...but just "doing my job." To the interrogator, he was simply doing his job, and doing it to the best of his ability. It is something he does, then he goes home to his wife and kids, and has dinner, and sits out on the porch trying to forget what he does because he thinks he *has* to do it...assuming he thinks about it at all."
The face of a stormtrooper. Actually, that would be an interesting premise: the individual life of a stormtrooper. XD
""This story must have been based on "Closetland." There were a bunch of similarities..."
I based this episode on a fairly substantial amount of reading and background in knowing about how people are treated in prison camps and the like. There are only so many things you can do to someone in a closed room to try and break them. Heck, look at William Saroyan's "Hello, Out There" for other similarities that *way* precede Closetland. I'm sorry to astonish you, but the techniques of interrogation existed long before B5 or ST or Closetland came into existence, and will continue (sadly) long afterward. The techniques are the techniques, and those are well documented. The *stories* have nothing whatsoever in common.
Over the last ten years or so, there have been a number of films which have looked at the process of interrogation in South American and European countries, using a very similar structure to what was done here, because the ways in which the "problem" are handled are pretty much universal. They don't all stem from the same film, or book, or story...but rather from the realities involved. They did what they did, and we did what we did, for the same reasons: to bring this sort of behavior into the light. There have also been innumerable plays with a similar structure.
In cop movie #1, a suspect is arrested, read his Miranda rights, brought to the station, stuck into a cell with one or two other people, brought into an interrogation room with one or two cops, goes round and round with them, and finally confesses. Cop movie #2 does a similar thing...now, did movie #2 take from movie #1, or did it just draw on what is *done*?
No, I'm sorry, but I wasn't thinking about Closetland, or Star Trek, or The Prisoner, or much of anything else when I wrote this episode. I was thinking about this character, from this show, who must be made to confess to alien influence, *which has been paraded by Earthforce for almost a year now*. It is an absolute and logical extension of what has gone before. As someone who has degrees in both Psychology and Sociology, and who has been a supporter of PEN International (a multinational group that monitors the treatment of writers who are prisoners of conscience in other countires) for years, I have had a longstanding interest and familiarity with this area...and through my European roots with relatives who were in Germany and Poland when the camps were in full swing, and later when the Russian government beat down its people. I have plenty of personal background on this one."
Which is what makes it scary. But seriously, these people. Why do they keep saying B5 is ripping off other shows? Surely it's original enough in most other things that you can assume a coincidence most of the time?
Again, I don't think this would have made a great season ender, but ah, well. At least we got a season five anyway. <3
In short, cuddle piles are needed. Which doesn't even go in to the next two episodes...
Conflicts of Interest:
"BTW, there's another example of a long single take coming up soon, on Epsilon 3, which is all I'll specify. I kinda wanted the scene to play itself out, without cutting, and to show just how amazingly capable some of our actors can be. We're talking here almost 4 minutes of footage, not one cut in the whole thing, very fast dialogue, and not a single muffed line, with the performances working wonderfully. You'll know it when you see it."
Oh, that scene. It is extremely amusing. Poor Ivanova. Zathras is hard to deal with on the best days. Especially when he's talking to dirt.
"Re: Daffy...I knew that cartoon, and had that definitely in mind when I wrote the script. Took some maneuvering to get WB to let us use that much of it."
We are very glad that you did. Because it's very apropos. And foreshadowing. And heartbreaking when put in this context. Garibaldi. T_T
"Re: the cartoon...I'm a big WB cartoon fan, and knew that one very well, and there were two places where it would've fit with the story; the other one, which I almost used, was when you see two Daffy's arguing with each other."
You devious person you. XD I really liked that cartoon actually. It was one of my favorites.
"Lise was the typical "woman in distress."
Re: Lise...well, everybody can't be a fighter; we've had guys and the occasional female character who isn't used to being shot at. I daresay I'm not terribly used to being shot at, and someone who's mainly a civilian would probably react about that same way. It's just a matter of showing that diversity realistically rather than saying, "Okay, let's have a helpless female now." Having every female (or male) hard-nosed and laughing off PPG bursts is as unrealistic as its opposite."
*raises eyebrow* You're going to accuse JMS of sexist tropes? Considering this is the fourth season and all and it's the first time we've really seen it, I'm prepared to take him on his word for this one. There's also the fact Lise isn't a large part of the series and the fact that she's clearly been shown as a business woman in this episode, I don't think she's 'just a helpless female'.
And here's where Garibaldi's storyline goes from bad to worse. T_T
Rumors, Bargains and Lies:
"Ivanova looked like she was reading from a teleprompter.
Yeah, we had Claudia use a teleprompter there to add to the sense of having to read something...and enjoy the happy-go-lucky Sheridan...it's the last you'll see of him for a long time...."
That amuses me for some reason. They had her use an actual teleprompter for realism. XD Also, Sheridan... *sniffles*
"Lennier seems to be doing more peacemaking than Delenn. Is he the real bridge between races? Why does the religious caste follow Delenn?
No, I wouldn't say Lennier is a bridge in any sense along those lines.
Delenn, you must understand, is a True Seeker, and among the religious caste there isn't much more admirable than that...combined with the fact that she *did* fulfill prophecy, she *was* the chosen of Dukhat, she *did* help end the Shadow War...yeah, she's had some problems here and there, but what important leader doesn't? Any one of those items would be a sufficient crown on a lifetime of achievement...the cumulative effect is quite daunting and impressive."
I feel like True Seeker should be a title of some sort in every day life. Also, further proof Delenn is BAMF, if you were some how sleeping during her "Be someplace else" speech. Males fulfilling prophecy? Pft. Delenn trumps all of you. And yes, I do love that it's her fulfilling prophecy rather than Sheridan. Sheridan has his own Vorlon issues. Usually ending in death when Z'ha'dum is involved.
"Are Lennier's patience, humor, and devotion unique?
No, many Minbari share in those traits."
It didn't feel like those traits were mutually exclusive? I mean, Neroon and Draal have both had senses of humor. Maybe Neroon has lacked patience, but he's warrior caste, so we can forgive that. And devotion... Is there a single Minbari who isn't devoted to some cause? Whether it's to their clan or to faith, Minbari are almost scary devoted.
"How did Londo see an Earth sitcom if all broadcasts to B5 are being jammed?
Easy. The incident Londo is mentioning happened prior to the blackout. He never said it *just* happened, he said the *last* time Rebo and Zooty did their routine, everybody was doing it."
Besides, Rebo and Zooty are just that awesome that they can get passed the jammers. Obliviously.
"Were Rebo and Zooty references to real people?
No, not intended as tributes to anyone, just a cool sounding pair of names (but also annoying sounding)."
Uh-huh. Sure. But let's face it, Penn and Teller playing them in season five was awesome.
Nerooooooooooooooooon. I love Neroon. I am sad there's not much else said about this episode. It's a fun one. I mean, all the Londo snark. I have missed the Londo snark. And the Garibaldi snark. But that's a whole nother story.
Moments of Transition:
From the notes:
"Cartoonist Scott Adams, creator of the "Dilbert" comic strip, has a cameo appearance in this episode. A press release about his appearance is available.
Mr. Adams' lost dog and cat are no doubt a reference to the characters of Dogbert and Catbert from the comic strip. Dogbert is constantly scheming to take over the world."
:o I never connected that. That's actually hilarious. A pretty clever cameo.
"In response to an earlier JMS message saying the cruiser wasn't the Agamemnon
I have to recant my correction.
The image as shown in the monitor was supposed to be shown *only* on the monitor, not blown up. The animators figured, it'll be too small to read the name on it, so we may as well grab a ship out of the library rather than building a new one (a sensible choice)...but when John and I got into editing, we grabbed the original video and did that close-up...and neither of us, NObody, ever even noticed the Aggy name until after it was mentioned here...and I then checked, and to my chagrin, it was there.
But in true Soviet Revisionist fashion, you can be assured that down the road, this will mysteriously be replaced by another shot...."
In Soviet Narn, the mistake makes you. I wonder if this is one of the ones we still have on tape somewhere, so that I could go find the goof. Oh, days before the DVD's were released. I just about killed some of those tapes. We're not talking bought tapes either, but ones recorded on the VCR.
"How does this story relate to G'Kar's speech?
In a way, it was the second half of G'Kar's sentence...that life can be broken down into moments of transition and moments of revelation...and there with Neroon at the end we had both."
Nerooooooooooooon. T_T We will miss him.
"Did he really realize he belonged in the religious caste, or did he just do it for Delenn's sake?
Whether it was true or not, he knew his actions would bring the castes back together...so out of respect for the dead, best to leave the issue unresolved, and accept his gesture for what it was."
T_T I think it's true. Because Neroon is that awesome, that he can multitask his death and divine revelations at the same time. Plus, he enjoyed flirting with Delenn far too much.
"What was wrong with Walter Koenig's hand?
As for Walter...he made the decision to play Bester with a deformed or useless hand, which he's compensating for as a teep."
Let's face it... Bester compensates for a lot more than just his hand.
"Then how does he put his gloves on?
Ask Walter."
*Snickers* Though really, that's old news. He's had the hand thing since the first season. If this is the first time you're noticing, you need to pay more attention.
"What's been great about B5 has been the chance to give many talented actors like Walter and others a chance to show the many other hues and colors they are capable of delivering, but which were rarely seen because the material didn't allow them the opportunity. I know Walter's loved it, and it's been great for us as well."
Besides, Bester snark is the best snark. I'm glad he was Bester, even if we really hated him for the Garibaldi thing. >.>
"Did Delenn's instructions include a message for Sheridan?
Almost certainly."
You and your death messages...
"The Grey Council stucture, visually, is designed to bring the Starfire wheel to mind. Valen, being something of a smart cookie, figured it would be wise to tie in whatever he was doing to the traditions that preceded him. So they're arranged in a circle, with a series of lights above them, and the one central light (for Dukhat, for instance) reserved for the one who had endured and grown to leadership, but through a somewhat less violent means."
Sneaky Sinclair knows how to play his cards. XD
""Finally, the diversity of cultures on Babylon 5 must be a satisfaction for you as a writer to have so many different voices to express. "MoT" for me was almost like seguing between playwrights -- Damon Runyan (Garibaldi) to Oscar Wilde (Bester) to Aeschylus (Minbar). One of the things I have found most appealing about Babylon 5 as a whole is that the language is similar to the language of the stage. That seems rare in a television milieu defined for the most part by diseases-of-the-week, talk-show spew and courtroom maneuverings."
Yeah, I like that part a lot, being able to write in lots of different voices, lots of different styles. You have to remember that I cut my teeth writing dialogue back when I was writing plays and getting them produced. I love theater, love plays, and love really well done or rich dialogue. So it echoes that now...which as you say isn't necessarily the style of dialogue seen on most television (which is why a few react weirdly to it), but I like it, and it's my show...."
We definitely like it too. It's probably part of the reason I have the monologue gene, since no one else in my family really monologues. I've been having issues keeping the Avengers from monologuing, actually... I can't help it. Monologues are fun. Totally under-rated nowadays too. T_T
"Lyta refused to scan Garibaldi, but was willing to scan the Centauri in "Passing Through Gethsemane."
Yes, it's an inconsistency; because humans are inconsistent. But it's only an inconsistency subject to Lyta's rationalizations...which are quite reasonable.
She didn't know the Centauri; she knew Garibaldi...they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brother Edward's *life* was in jeapordy, and that this person may hold the key to saving his life and every instant they waited meant he could be dying, whereas there is no such crisis in the Garibaldi situation...they were able to hide her identity from the Centauri whereas they would not be able to do so with her and Garibaldi....
The decision to scan or not to scan is essentially a moral or ethical decision. When someone's life is on the line, that raises one ethical concern, as opposed to Zack just having a vague suspicion about Garibaldi's character and asking her to engage in a fishing expedition. There is a quantum difference between the two of them.
Would a physician give someone the tools necessary to end his life? No. Would he do so if the person were chronically ill and in constant, terrible pain? Very possibly. It's the *context*. You can't expect people to act the same in every situation regardless of context, context is everything.
People are not robots, they rationalize, they are inconsistent, but they generally have *reasons* for it that they can justify. As somebody once said, rationalizations are more important than sex, because you can *go* a day without sex.... [Ed. note: this is a quote from "The Big Chill."]"
That is an interesting quote. Also, totally understandable reasoning. Plus, I seem to remember her protesting the first case too before it was explained to her.
Garibaldi. T_T Neroon. T_T T_T FEELS. Curse you, season four. Granted, the scene that breaks my heart the most is actually in season five, but hey.
No Surrender, No Retreat:
"Why don't we ever see Clark?
I wanted to keep Clark more a force than a person...and Vir has just been off doing his usual Vir stuff...he's back this coming week."
It's more fun to hate him that way. Also, easier to build him up without the chance of 'disappointing' us when the whole thing finally ends.
"Proxima 3 is in the Proxima Centauri system, next door to Proxima 2, but no one goes there because the tourist season is way too short."
I'll keep that in mind while planning my next vacation.
""were these White Stars tired or something? I would've expected that a couple of them could just go slice-slice, sever the rotating sections on the EA ships and have 'em for breakfast."
Sure, if all you're interested in is slaughtering the opposition...they were designed for "destroy"...when you have to pull your punches to avoid just going in and killing EVERYthing in sight...which will only work *against* you in the long run, it becomes more difficult."
*blinks* There's another thing I'd have thought was obvious, but hey. Apparently not.
"There were a lot of ethical decisions on all sides, something you don't usually see in military SF. Were you in the military?
No, I wasn't in the military, just having missed the Vietnam draft. The points you mention are all the ones I wanted to get into with that episode, and the ones a lot of folks have overlooked in suggesting that it should have been an episode about slicing-and-dicing the enemy (the enemy in this case being our own species). The show, at root, is about ethics, among other things, and the ethical choices will continue to get more difficult the deeper you go. There is a very fine line that Sheridan's walking in all this."
A wild intelligent commenter appears! I like that Sheridan tries to save as many people as he can, and I think the show does a good job of showing the troubles of civil wars.
"It's certainly an issue I care about quite a lot, and the delicate balance between orders and conscience, between what you think you should be doing vs. what you feel you *must* do, is the heart of 99% of all drama."
Drama is important. We must all have drama. And angst. Because being cruel to the characters is fun. <3
"The Londo/G'Kar stuff was nifty...and yes, he's struggling toward redemption as best he can, making a real effort, which is important, because if he's going to end up with a Keeper on him eventually, as we've seen, best to feel for him, which you can't if he's a bad guy.
Set 'em up, knock 'em down...."
.... I hate you. Just so you know. Not that I wouldn't have done anything differently, but still. So much hate.
Wow, lots of short commentaries... Things are getting heated up with the Civil War. Have some snark to make up for the shortness. Snark always helps.
The Exercise of Vital Powers:
"One thing on the line Wade speaks...the actor consistently got the line wrong. It read, "Everything is illusion, Mr. Garibaldi; constructs of light, language, metaphor," rather than concepts.
There is a subtle but distinct difference."
Oops. Sometimes that happens. I hate it when the line just doesn't want to come out right no matter how much you practice it.
Er... wow. There really isn't a lot on this one. I shall just sit here and cry over Garibaldi some more, shall I? T_T
The Face of the Enemy:
This episode has a major spoiler warning. Also, major sad panda cuddle pile warning. Yes, we were all silly enough to change our nicks to SadPandas 1, 2, and 3. But the cuddle piles were needed.
"One thing I've been doing with the latter part of season 4 is to experiment a little more, try different things. I feel that we need to push visually to try new things, the sort of visual techniques you don't see much in SF-TV, which for the most part is fairly prosaic as these things go. And to push the writing, to try some things that may succeed, or may fail, but you learn something either way. In its way, next week's ep is just as experimental, but in a very different direction."
Not to mention breaking our hearts with Garibaldi. >.>
"Zimbalist did a great job for us...he took huge gobs of exposition and not only delivered them, he made them interesting."
He definitely had one of those distinguishable voices. It's one you recognize.
"""The Face of the Enemy" might represent the flipside of young Delenn's claim in "Atonement" that the most dangerous enemy is the one you know nothing about. Now the face of the enemy is the one you know all too well, one which you take for granted until it's revealed that the face is actually a mask."
Yep. It's one thing facing implacable, vast enemies...it's quite another when you friend betrays you. That's personal."
Garibaldi. T_T
"There isn't that much direct, personal violence in the show. My feeling is that if you do that a lot, it loses any potential for impact. You only pull out that card when you really need it, to best effect...don't waste it. It's like harsh language, after you've heard someone going on using all the more remarkable Anglo-Saxon words for a while, it loses all impact."
That's exactly how I feel about cuss words. Though I'm not sure if losing at video games counts as impactful. It is generally when I'm the most frustrated though.
""I thought the fight was a bit too long for much the same reason as you. All I can suggest is that John's metabolism isn't "normal" any more, and perhaps this had an effect. (And maybe the bullyboys were doing less damage than we think, simply to prolong the "fun".)"
1) It was for dramatic/stylistic effect. Not everything done with some style has to have a scientific explanation.
2) Having been mugged myself, time expands and slows down.
3) It's the TV cliche that fights are over in a second. Ask anyone who's ever been in a real knock-down fight. It goes on a heck of a lot longer than we showed here. When I got mugged it went on for 10 minutes.
One of the ironies in other messages on this (not this one here specifically) is that some have noted the fast-paced editing, which is supposedly associated with music video/short attention span material...and then turn around and say it wasn't over fast enough."
I didn't think the fight went on too long. Plus I liked the slow motion cameras on the fight scene combined with the lighting. Personally, I thought it was rather effective.
"Why mess Edgars' place up so thoroughly?
They wanted it to look like it was done by the Resistance; too much "attention" to his death would've drawn attention to the Corps."
Oh, the Resistance. Everyone's scapegoat. Poor Marsies. Granted, the extremists are quite scary...
"Why haven't the other races had conflict between their telepaths and their normals?
Obviously some, like the Minbari, dealt with it more easily than others; and in some places it came through Vorlon interference, while in others it came about naturally."
That's an interesting question. Now I kind of want to know how it happened in the Centauri court, because I'm betting that involves lots of intrigue. I think Earth was one of those that would have needed Vorlon interference, except now they're not here to give it and the Shadows messed around a bit much.
""Franklin and Number One seem to have cooled their relationship. Any further developments in the works here?"
Any more personal stuff got set aside when Franklin showed up a) with another female, and b) she was a teep. When #1 calms down, they might take another shot at it."
Franklin gets around. We won't go into my mother's off hand comment about having slept with him during our B5 campaign, or Adam being completely thrown off by the comment. XD
""Lastly, there is a bit of irony in the fact that the stage for Sheridan's capture is set when he steps aboard his old ship, the Agamemnon. Agamemnon was the supreme commander of the Greek forces at Troy, who survived that long war, but who was betrayed and murdered by his wife when he returned home. He blindly and arrogantly stepped into a trap, as Sheridan also seemed to do."
Yeah...that's one of many reasons why I picked that image/reference. It plays on a LOT of levels in the story."
Oh, the Aggy. Except, I've never felt a lick of sympathy for Agamemnon. Clytemnestra, sure, but Agamemnon? Yeah, the guy was an ass. Sorry. Completely missed that pity train.
Garibaldi. T_T He really is one of my favorites in the series. Cy has her G'kar flails, I can cry over Garibaldi. And JMS just doesn't leave him alone either. T_T
Intersections in Real Time:
From the Notes:
"The interrogator mentioned that Sheridan had been interrogated once before. That referred to "Comes the Inquisitor," in which Sheridan was interrogated by Jack the Ripper (played by Wayne Alexander, who played the Drazi in this episode.)"
Well, that's a mind fuck right there. Damn. Never connected that one.
"About the title
Each act took place in real time, no time jumps...the conversation happened as it happened. Since you had act breaks in between them, those became intersections...in real time."
Clever.
"I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4 episodes forward, really. You'll understand when you see it."
Hm. I don't think this would have made a very good season end, to be honest. I would have liked a bit more of Ivanova in charge though. That would have been awesome.
"Actually, one episode coming up in this batch is, according to John Copeland, the single most subversive thing we've ever done on the show. It's a *mean* episode and completely, unabashedly underhanded in its way of illuminating certain things. While, oddly enough, ending in a positive fashion, despite George Johnsen's comment at playback during the audio mix, "Okay, what sadistic m-----f----- wrote this thing?"
Eh, I thought Rock Cried Out was better, but then, I'm not overly fond of this episode to begin with. So.
""You understand the concepts of breaking down a human psyche."
(shrugs) Well, sure...I work for Warner Bros."
Touché.
"Why do people do end-of-season cliffhangers?
It's basically a means to get the audience, which has been away for a long time, to come back to resolve a hanging point and jump-start them into the episodes. If it ends cleanly, apparently a lot of folks in any series will just forget to tune in the following season."
Also, because they are fun and writers are a sadistic lot. I'm assuming this questioner doesn't know a lot of writers.
"Was the Drazi really there? He was played by the same actor who played Jack.
The Drazi was really there...has to be, or the ep loses some of its teeth. And yeah, we kinda liked the symmetry of Wayne being in this ep."
You just wanted to mess with our heads in numerous ways, don't lie.
"Yes, the Drazi was working with the EA the whole time, rendering Sheridan's "victory" impotent."
Screw you, victory. Never needed you in the first place.
"Why doesn't Clark just have Bester reprogram Sheridan?
Because they don't want him reprogrammed; as William says, another teep could see that he'd been altered. They want him *sincerely broken*. Not just rewired.
And yeah, I wanted this to function almost as a play in structure. In fact, when we shot it, we did it in full-act chunks. The actors would come in in the morning, rehearse it as they would a play, then we'd shoot it the way we'd shoot a play, straight through."
Which is actually one of the more impressive bits of this episode. Those were some long scenes.
"Did Sheridan say very little to avoid giving the interrogator anything to use against him?
That's one reason (among many) that I kept Sheridan silent for the most part; a) because the less he says the better overall from his position, and b) the audience would want to respond for him."
I like that second reason. Too bad it's not one I'd really get to use too often, since I tend to be overly think-y with my characters, but I suppose I could do it with the non-POV character.
"The interrogator looked like an ordinary person.
Exactly. The banal face of evil. You look at most of the guys who ran Treblinka, or Bergen-Belsen, and they're largely ordinary looking guys, who could be accountants or repair men or car salesmen. They're *us*...and this was designed to remind us of that. The evil, mustache-twirling villain is too easy, and too far from the truth of it."
But car salesman are evil. Ordinary people sort of faces are fun to mess with though. Why do you think everyone likes Coulson? XD
"This was one of the elements that made the episode interesting for me; most SF tends to ignore the darker sides of the common person. They deal with the big bad guys, the evil federations and Darth Vaders and all the other major forces out there, but all too often the real damage is done not by the single Evil Leader, but by the ten million people who *follow* him, the bookkeepers who track the bodies and the trains and the pain by placing the right figures in all the right columns, who make the trains run on time, who run the gulags, who build the new state empires that will be built with slave labor, any or all of whom could say, as many have, "I was just doing my job."
Not so much "following orders," we've heard that before, applied to the military...but just "doing my job." To the interrogator, he was simply doing his job, and doing it to the best of his ability. It is something he does, then he goes home to his wife and kids, and has dinner, and sits out on the porch trying to forget what he does because he thinks he *has* to do it...assuming he thinks about it at all."
The face of a stormtrooper. Actually, that would be an interesting premise: the individual life of a stormtrooper. XD
""This story must have been based on "Closetland." There were a bunch of similarities..."
I based this episode on a fairly substantial amount of reading and background in knowing about how people are treated in prison camps and the like. There are only so many things you can do to someone in a closed room to try and break them. Heck, look at William Saroyan's "Hello, Out There" for other similarities that *way* precede Closetland. I'm sorry to astonish you, but the techniques of interrogation existed long before B5 or ST or Closetland came into existence, and will continue (sadly) long afterward. The techniques are the techniques, and those are well documented. The *stories* have nothing whatsoever in common.
Over the last ten years or so, there have been a number of films which have looked at the process of interrogation in South American and European countries, using a very similar structure to what was done here, because the ways in which the "problem" are handled are pretty much universal. They don't all stem from the same film, or book, or story...but rather from the realities involved. They did what they did, and we did what we did, for the same reasons: to bring this sort of behavior into the light. There have also been innumerable plays with a similar structure.
In cop movie #1, a suspect is arrested, read his Miranda rights, brought to the station, stuck into a cell with one or two other people, brought into an interrogation room with one or two cops, goes round and round with them, and finally confesses. Cop movie #2 does a similar thing...now, did movie #2 take from movie #1, or did it just draw on what is *done*?
No, I'm sorry, but I wasn't thinking about Closetland, or Star Trek, or The Prisoner, or much of anything else when I wrote this episode. I was thinking about this character, from this show, who must be made to confess to alien influence, *which has been paraded by Earthforce for almost a year now*. It is an absolute and logical extension of what has gone before. As someone who has degrees in both Psychology and Sociology, and who has been a supporter of PEN International (a multinational group that monitors the treatment of writers who are prisoners of conscience in other countires) for years, I have had a longstanding interest and familiarity with this area...and through my European roots with relatives who were in Germany and Poland when the camps were in full swing, and later when the Russian government beat down its people. I have plenty of personal background on this one."
Which is what makes it scary. But seriously, these people. Why do they keep saying B5 is ripping off other shows? Surely it's original enough in most other things that you can assume a coincidence most of the time?
Again, I don't think this would have made a great season ender, but ah, well. At least we got a season five anyway. <3
In short, cuddle piles are needed. Which doesn't even go in to the next two episodes...