Unrequited
You know the drill by now. All comments taken from The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5. Sound bytes are from the Down Below Sound Archive.
Between the Darkness and Light:
"It's a nice, quiet little episode.
Well, at least, in comparison to what's coming...."
Liar.
"Was this episode filmed after Claudia Christian decided to leave?
Negative. We'd finished all S4 shooting at the time this occured."
T_T
"Was there a scene missing between Sheridan shooting the guard and his arrival on the Minbari ship?
Yes, there was a small scene that got cut for time.
Good catch."
Really? Now I'm wondering what that scene was.
"The Garibaldi material through the map sequence with Number One was originally in "Intersections." It got shunted over to 419 when 418 ran 7-8 minutes long, and 419 ran 8 minutes short."
Really? That's convenient. Also, I think it works better in this episode, rather than interrupting the other episode. Intersections is much more effective that way.
"During the interrogation, the female interrogator said, "Put a bullet in his head." But Earth uses PPGs now, not bullets.
Nope. We've established (in Grey 17 is Missing, for instance) that guns are still used on Earth and elsewhere; but in a space station, you don't want a slug-thrower because it tends to a) ricochet a lot off metal walls, or b) cut through something vital that would breach the hull potentially."
Besides, put a bullet in his head sounds so much better than a ppg round to the head. Though, in the books they offer another reason to use bullets planet side. Namely, ppg's are pretty explosive during a rainfall. Energy weapons and water just don't mix.
"About Ivanova's eidetic memory
She's a latent telepath. About a P1. As has been established on the show in the past. That gives her a slight edge in many areas. Also, an eidetic memory does not equal facility with language. I have a somewhat eidetic memory. I can usually remember visuals and things said to me with extreme clarity. (Unless I'm in convention mode at the time, at which point all bets are off.) But I have a real problem with learning languages, which involves not just memorization, but *translation,* which is a skill, a knack that some others have and some don't. (Spanish rolled off me, but for some reason I have a knack for German, though my vocabulary's gone all to hell.)"
Hm. I wonder where I fall on this spectrum. I'm definitely not totally eidetic, because I don't have total recall. But I am called MemoryDragon for a reason. Well. Technically, it was for plotty character reasons, but I do apparently live up to the name in most cases. Unlike Cy, who I do love very much.
""These new EA ships with Shadow tech...Are they susceptible to telepaths like the shadow vessels were?"
Negative...they don't have living beings as CPUs, they're still working at adapting the basic tech, the other stuff is still a bit advanced.
"By the way, the EA adaptation to the shadow tech is accurately done. Keep the basic Omega design and modify where needed."
Got it in one."
You know, I was about to say the letter Omega has been completely ruined for me by fandom, except I've fought the Omega weapon too many times to pin that one totally on fandom. Between that and the Ultima weapon, I have cursed many an optional boss. Also, wtf? Omega weapon is a random encounter in X-2? All the more reason to hate FFX and it's sequel... Also, back on the original topic, nice points, commenter.
"The Advanced destroyer group was still somewhat in the works when they hauled it out to go after the fleet. They'd been expecting mainly to go after other Earth ships (as was noted in the episode), and didn't count on exclusively being confronted by Whitestars. Still, there were a lot of them here, and they did a lot of damage by sheer force of numbers.
Corwin would be running the station in everyone's absence."
Corwin, far more BAMF than anyone realizes.
"About Ivanova's speech
Yeah, it was a bit over the top, deliberately so.
I put it in the category of a boxer who's going up against an opponent who may be well matched...and wants to psych the other person out.
If you look at "Give me liberty or give me death!" or similar statements, made to rally support or make a point, they're generally bigger than life, a bit over the top. That's so we can know where the top is so we can climb up there ourselves."
Over the top? Yeah. Completely BAMF so that it works anyway? Totally. I put this one on the show's two most BAMF moments list. Do not mess with Delenn and Ivanova. They will kick your ass.
"Some have complained about the rescue, arguing that they wanted to see a big battle. (To which answer #1 is wait 7 days.) They wanted to see the fleet smack Mars and free him in a big battle.
Well, if you do that, you can kiss goodbye any chance of the fleet then doing what it's SUPPOSED to be doing, which is the liberation of Earth. While they're tied up and planetbound (on one side) at Mars, Earth swoops in and knocks them out. You also lose any possible aspect of surprise.
It *had* to be done quickly, through the back door, rather than the fleet that some might have been expecting, so it'd look like a Resistance job, not a Fleet job."
Besides, going through the front door? Really wasting resources there. More people would have died. It makes practical sense to me.
""Why were there no cameras monitoring Sheridan?"
Torturers rarely videotape their work, thus assuring that it can never be used against them should things not go their way all the time. This is kinda pro forma in South America, for instance."
Hm, that's something I never really thought about. Makes sense.
Ivanova. T_T Though you have to love G'kar and Londo working together. Plus, one of Lyta's best lines. It is so very good to have Garibaldi back too.
Endgame:
Extreme Spoiler episode. Be warned.
From the Analysis:
"The parallel between Greek myth and Sheridan's command of the Agamemnon has further resonance here, especially the variant in which Agamemnon's daughter Iphigenia is saved from death by Artemis. Marcus, a self-described virgin ("The Summoning") has brought Ivanova back from the dead (assuming the alien device does in fact successfully revive her.) What parallel, if any, there will be with the rest of the myth -- Iphigenia living the rest of her life in a distant temple, far from her family -- remains to be seen."
Hm. You're stretching it a bit much. Though I do have a soft spot for Iphigenia. I'm a bit more fond of the ending where she actually dies though. Cause, ya know, tragedy.
"The episode seemed rushed.
Okay, one general response here...people are seeing rush where in many cases there is NOT a rush. Look, pay attention here: WE'RE IN THE FOURTH ACT OF THE EARTH CYCLE. Like the fourth act of an episode, you have to really start cranking. You want it to be at white-heat once you hit the ground.
What's in Endgame, and most of Between... was always going to be there, with or without a 5th season. I made my trims in the period PRIOR TO these episodes, for the most part.
This is the culmination of something we've been building now for three years, and I'm going to make it as damned fast-paced as I can.
So don't go into this assuming it was rushed...it's *fast*, and that's the difference here.
People complain when we do character stories that the arc isn't moving fast enough...people complain that it's moving too fast when the arc is in full gear...sombody get a concensus going here, okay?"
Nope. No consensus will be reached. You will forever have to defend yourself from both sides. XD
"How did you fit so much into one hour?
It's one of those things I don't know if I can explain adequately, or sensibly. A lot of it is totally instinctive, I don't sit down and think about it, I just do it. But to dissect...part of it is the intensity of the scenes, I think. Strong emotion extends time, stretches it; if you've ever been in a major traumatic situation, a few minutes can seem like hours. The more you can put your character into a situation of intense emotions, and create those same emotions in the viewer, you will in effect slow down perceived time. Also, there's the matter of context here. If you've set something up in prior episodes, in something like "Endgame" there's no set-up which means exposition and chews up time; you go right for the high point in the story bell-curve, and you stay there. So the part you're used to seeing take only a few minutes at the end of an episode becomes almost the entirety of the episode; same result."
I think I'm definitely too wordy for that technique. Ah, well. I can build things up in other ways.
"The Mars surface effects looked different.
Actually, most of the prior mars shots were done by an outside contractor, who's been doing such shots for the history of the show. NDEI's boys wanted a chance to do them, and did so.
They're not bad...we still need to improve a bit on the movements, and the camera still moves a bit too fast, which gives it that computer-y feel...but overall, not bad."
This falls into my smile and nod category. ^^;;;
"Has Mars' air pressure been increased so pressure suits are no longer needed?
My feeling is that there's been some small terraforming, which has helped a little, but there's still a long way to go."
I shall take your word on that. Also, full pressure suits really aren't stylish, so it works for me.
"Wouldn't the ship's quartermaster notice a frozen telepath arriving?
In something like this, you don't move unless you have the main quartermaster at the Mars base ON YOUR SIDE. You stuff it all into cargo loaders and crates, and ship it up. Have you ever seen military shipments? I looked into this, and security for big crates like this is done *at the point of shipping*."
So, basically, Marsies are still easy to bribe. XD
""What was needed was at least talk of a major Mars resistance attack occuring at the same time to draw off the security."
There was. Go back to the scene on the Apollo when the first word of attacks comes in...it says specifically that they're hitting a number of places *including* a White Star hitting that particular base."
I... When did you get the feeling the Mars Resistance wasn't doing anything? Some people baffle me.
"Why didn't Sheridan send another ship after Marcus?
You don't send a ship away to chase one person when you're going into a battle. You don't KNOW what ships you are and aren't going to need. In theory you took everything you had because you thought you needed it. Yeah, Marcus was a friend, but a lot of friends would die this day. You think he would put Marcus's situation ahead of the fleet? Isolate one ship and risk it to go after him? Ever been in the military? You talk about it, but what you propose doesn't make sense. Would Patton have sent back a tank because somebody fell behind? No."
Marucs. T_T Also, another thing I thought was well portrayed to the point of totally not needing that question, but hey.
"Why did Marcus have to do what he did?
In this case, it ties very much into this character's background...and would, in another universe in which CC decided to stay, have spun out into some rather interesting developments."
Why do you torment us with these sorts of comments? T_T I want this AU and the Takashima one.
""Well, unless its a coincidence, the "circled doodled message left by madman after he commits suicide" is VERY similar to what happens in Dr. Strangelove. Again, maybe its JMS's homage to Kubrick (like the "2001" style spacesuit that appeared in a second or third season episode, I forget which, of B5)."
Just to clarify this....
Re: the note...the script as written calls only for the finding of a note with the words "scorched earth" on it. It was John Copeland's idea to do the note as shown, and yes, he's said quite openly over on AOL that it was his nod to Strangelove. (John directed that episode.)
Re: the suit...that wasn't an intentional 2001 nod...we went to Modern Props to get a space suit for Babylon Squared, and the only one they had on hand that would work for us was one left-over from 2010, which I asked the folks in costume to change as much as possible...though it was pretty much what it was regardless. So that one wasn't intentional."
I still need to watch Strangelove. Some day. Also, the space suit... Aw. Sometimes there just ain't much you can do.
""...the symmetry and symbolism in how you structured that final battle. The story of Babylon 5 basically started with the Minbari fleet coming to Earth to destroy it at the Battle of the Line. To have the Minbari fleet return to Earth, not to destroy humanity, but to save it, especially along side Earth fighters and capital ships was stunning."
Noticed that little touch, did you....?
What goes around, comes around."
Intelligent commenters are so rare in these commentaries. I figured I'd add this one because of that. XD
"Lefcourt does not think that his job is to set policy or overthrow presidents. The military executes orders that emanate from the head of the government, through the chain of command. Once that chain of command was changed, the orders were no longer valid."
Lefcourt was just one of those people you wanted to shake, but couldn't hate. Still, he got outsmarted in the end.
"Why wasn't Clark allowed to present his point of view, even at the end?
I tried to do it through his lieutenants and plenepotentiaries (hope I spelled that right, I'm too tired to get the dictionary down). ISN gives you his point of view, ditto for Nightwatch, MiniPax, others. I think if I had him just saying it out loud, it would diminish him much the way that repeated exposure to the shadow vessels gradually removed their mystery and menace. Less is more."
I'm pretty sure we still got Hitler's point of view, despite not knowing German. Besides, I like not seeing his face at all.
"About the return of the old ISN anchor
"I've been thinking about the rapidity of her return to ISN. I agree that there wasn't time to break her out of prison and get her old dressing room back for the morning news"
When the Soviet Union fell, and the prison doors were thrown open, a number of reporters who had fallen out of favor with the Party and were sitting in cells walked out, went across the street, and went on the air within a matter of hours.
Humans are resilient and determined sorts."
Besides, I liked her coming back. It was a nice touch to have the original actress return to it.
Marcus. T_T I'll admit, I cried myself to sleep the first time I saw this episode. But at least we have Garibaldi snark to fall back on.
Rising Star:
""If this had been it, I would've walked away with a great big smile and a full heart."
Exactly..it doesn't *end* the story, as people kept saying, "Oh, the arc is being finished in year 4," it provides a sense of *resolution*, which is different altogether, and leaves plenty of room for other planned stuff."
It was Nar's comment too. XD
"President Luchenko's accent sounded fake.
I love comments like that.
Beata, who played the President, is a native-born Russian.
Ed. note: Beata Pozniak was actually born in Gdansk, Poland, not Russia. The accent is her own, however."
He has way too much fun pointing that sort of thing out. XD Hell, so would I, but hey.
"If Marcus had survived, it would have been a copout.
As for Marcus, that's precisely the point. If we do what we do to Ivanova, then let her get bailed out, then do the same for Marcus, it becomes a double-cheat, and that's not fair to do to the audience. If you bail her out but only at great cost to someone else, it's not a cheat on either level.
And yeah, generally, if you follow the threads, you can pick up on where things are going. It's something I learned on Murder, She Wrote, where at the end, when the killer's been revealed, you should be able to back up the tape, watch it again, and this time see all the little bits that point to his (or her) identity. It's basically about playing fair with the audience."
Which is why you write a fix-it fanfic. *shakes head* Still, you didn't have Marcus wake up in her life time, so it's not quite a cop out. You just write ridiculous fix-it fic because you are that sort of precious.
"It was hard doing that to the character [of Marcus], but it was the only way to handle the situation with any integrity and honesty. Very hard to write."
I feel absolutely no sympathy for you on this, just so you know.
"Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen, looking for something worth throwing his life away on because he could find little worth in his own."
Marcus. T_T
"Why did Lennier tell Delenn what Ivanova said?
Because Lennier is quite familiar with the concept of unrequited love, and because hope burns eternal.
Which is probably the most damnable part of unrequited love."
*pats Lennier* Oh, sweetling...
"Was the shot of Claudia Christian at the end from another episode, inserted when she decided not to return?
No, that's a new shot (Claudia at the window). She was shot for that episode for that voice-over...we just changed one line. The basic thrust was that she was going to take some time to *decide* whether to take on B5, or to take on a Warlock class destroyer. So we just went with the decision."
And so we lost the awesome that is Ivanova. It is the ultimate tragedy. Though, admittedly, she escaped the Bryon thing because of it, which is always a plus. And while Lochley wasn't quite as awesome as Ivanova, she still rocked quite a bit.
"Everything's wrapped up now. What's left to do in season five?
Things that *could* show up (leaving in some ambiguity just to keep some surprises):
The start of the telepath war
The start of drakh war
Londo's fate on Centauri Prime
The first year trying to make the Interstellar Alliance work
Inter-faction fighting among the Alliance members
The development of Mars as an independent state
The legacy of William Edgars' black projects
Fallout from the civil war, and the feelings about it
How Lennier, Sheridan and Delenn will get along now
How's that just for starters?"
You silly person, thinking there's nothing left for season 5. He has stated before that he was just as interested in after the war as during, so it makes sense to me.
"The Rangers are independent in authority, answering only to Delenn and Sheridan and the members of the Alliance council and advisory board. (In roughly descending order.) But their jurisdiction is exclusively in interplanetary situations between various member races. Each member race has the sovereign authority to govern its people in its own way.
The closest comparison is that overall, the states are free to enact their own laws, but the US Government has sole claim over international matters. Except here the states would have far more autonomy than is currently the rule; more like pre-Civil War America."
Hm, an interesting analogy. Especially since the States do like their rights.
"Is Sheridan and Delenn's bed horizontal or tipped up in the Minbari style?
They will alternate, as you'll see soon...."
Translation: How are we supposed to write our fanfic porn? Answer: Go nuts! XD
Oh, this episode. It's heartbreaking. I really wanted an Ivanova icon with that quote on there, but sadly all of the good icons changed the quote to 'not unrequited'. Which just offended me. Sigh. I tried.
The Deconstruction of Falling Stars:
"Why was Claudia Christian's name taken out of the credits but Jason Carter's left in?
We had no choice. Contractually, when we moved "Sleeping in Light" into the fifth season, we had to move her credit from "Deconstruction" or incur an additional episode's payment. We didn't even realize this until WB called and put us on notice about this literally 3 days before the episode was uplinked. It wasn't a choice we had; they said that it had to be moved. We could leave Jason in the credits because he didn't appear in SiL."
That's sadness. Contracts are sometimes a pain in the ass, I guess.
"Since this episode was numbered 422 rather than 501, will the production numbers of season 5 episodes be changed too?
Yes, the S5 episodes will be renumbered prior to broadcast.
More Soviet Revisionism in action...."
In Soviet Narn, the episodes renumber you. XD
"Do you ever get the urge to thumb your nose at people on the net who predict B5's demise?
Nope...no intentions of doing that.
I have something MUCH better in mind...."
*raises eyebrow* JMS, I have read your forward on the DVD's. It was the equivalent. So forgive me if I don't believe you. XD
"A few people have interpreted the final card as "meanspirited" (when it's on one level a reaction *to* five years of constant carping and meanspiritedness from lots of sectors, from the nets to the press and elsewhere)...but what it is, is a statement of hope. That whenever you try something different, there are going to be naysayers, and people who say it can't be done, and certainly can't be done by *you*.
It ain't just B5, it's any dream out there.
And in the end, they are wrong.
Faith manages.
That's the message of the card.
That, and the truth that in 10 years the naysayers will be forgotten, and made irrelevant...but the show, the *show*...goes on. And will be around long after they and I have gone to dust. And all people will know when they see that card, 50 years from now, was that some jerks said it couldn't be done, and they were wrong, because they are *always* wrong. If you have the dream, the ability and the passion, you can bring your dreams to life despite overwhelming opposition. That's the message.
But for those on the other side, they will never see anything other than meanspiritedness because that's all they can *ever* see...because that's all they can bring to the table.
There's an old saying about books, which I'll rephrase to include B5: Babylon 5 is like a book, and a book is like a mirror: if an ass peers in, you can't exactly expect an apostle to peer out."
Um... why are we caring about being mean spirited to flamers anyway? Besides, it didn't seem mean spirited to me. Unbearably smug, yes, but not mean spirited. XD Also, I really love that last like about a book being like a mirror.
"There will always be short-term setbacks, but as long as we climb back a few inches higher than we were before we fell down, we keep moving toward the goal of becoming a better people, and getting off the planet. Taking our place among the stars. While it's vaguely possible that I may *see* a Mars colony sometime within my lifetime, I know that I will never live there...but that ain't the point, it isn't a victory if *I* do it, and a failure if *I* don't, it's if *we* do it or not. Maybe we'll do it today, maybe we'll do it tomorrow, the point is to decide to DO it, and then by god DO IT.
And yeah, that little closing card is going to remain on the show for its life...which will be long, long after its detractors (and admittedly myself) have gone to dust. On the one hand, it is a statement of hope to anyone else out there who has a dream, to follow it no matter who speaks against you, no matter the odds, no matter what they say to or about you, no matter what roadblocks they throw in your way. What matters is that you remain true to your vision.
On the other hand, for the reviewers and the pundits and the critics and the net-stalkers who have done nothing but rag on this show for five years straight, it is also a giant middle finger composed of red neon fifty stories tall, that will burn forever in the night.
In billiards, we call that a bank-shot."
*Snickers* Yeah, that's what I thought. Giant middle finger.
"Does the Great Burn mean the B5 crew ultimately failed?
It depends on your point of view.
The fact, as I see it, is that no one and nothing will ever solve all of our problems at once, now and forever. People will always be people. You can't wave a magic wand and fix it all.
Yes, there was another war...but had the Shadows not been stopped by our characters, there likely wouldn't have been a human race at ALL anymore.
Yes, there was a war, and many died in it...as tends to happen in war...but the nominal right side in it came out on top, which would not have been the case but for Garibaldi's simulacra giving them a leg up on things.
We have had, continue to have, and will always have wars, and grief, and struggle...we will climb up and fall down...but each time we climb a little higher, and in the end, we *do* build the world that our ancestors would have wanted for us...we *do* leave the cradle at last, and we take our place among the stars teaching those who follow us.
For my money, that's as happy an ending as we or anyone can ever hope for."
Question: You're blaming B5 for something that happens that long after it was destroyed? Really? Also, I tend to agree with the inability to fix things with that sort of magical wand.
"You spoiled the events of season five!
As with anything else, B5 (in whatever incarnation) is about *process*. You saw Londo being strangled by G'Kar...but you didn't know how they got there. You know the result of the Earth/Minbari war...but I suspect there will be a lot of surprises in "In the Beginning."
As with all things, the joy is in the going. We all know we're going to die, that as the poet said, "we are born astride the grave." But knowing that inevitable reality has never stopped human endeavor before....
It's the journey and the doing that matters."
It amuses me that people can't tell the difference between foreshadowing and spoilers. It's not spoilers when the writer introduces it into canon. *rolls eyes*
"From a discussion of a 1997 convention featuring Stephen Furst
BTW, if you want to flip Stephen out, and you get this before leaving the con, give him the following message from me (I don't have the hotel info at hand). Tell him Joe says this:
"Don't worry anymore about using mainly securecam style coverage in act 3, I've just come up with another approach where I can cover it in dialogue to let you do whatever you want with the camera, so you'll have all the flexibility there you want."
Here's a use of a convention you haven't seen much before...."
lol. Do I even want to know what that was about?
"How did Delenn get into the studio?
Most TV studios that I've seen have back doors that open out onto the back lot or the outside for fire control reasons. You can get into any of the 3 B5 stages from the outside in, oh, about 5 seconds through any of a number of doors. (Note to anyone looking on: yes, those stage doors are secured, and there are guards, and unless you're a Minbari you're not getting in.) And most of the TV studios I've been in have been the same."
She got in by being BAMF, most likely by telling whoever was on duty to get the hell out of her way. I mean, seriously, would you say no to Delenn? I thought not.
"Wouldn't the colonies offer Earth some help?
Some probably would offer to help...but if technology is now suspect, some might not want that help...other colonies might be of the "screw 'em, they got what they deserved" perspective...often politics gets in the way of charity."
Yeah, I wouldn't imagine trusting any outsiders after an event like that.
""By any chance, is the post-apocalyptic religious order shown in "Deconstruction . ." a direct decendant of Brother Theo's order on Babylon 5?"
It's altogether possible....
And Theo is only awaiting a story worth bringing him in for."
YES. MOAR THEO. Sadly, he never returned. But I am all for more Brother Theo.
"Interesting aside...for the last 6-8 months, I've been doing a fair amount of research into medieval England, especially the medieval church, for a play I'm writing (which may become a novel if I'm not careful). Dumped several hundred dollars on a massive order from Amazon.com back a few months ago to fill out what I needed. That was what tangentially led me into the post-Burn sequence in "Deconstruction." My brain has been full of monks for the last 8 months or so, and knowing the role they played in maintaining secular knowledge from about 500 AD and for some time thereafter, that seemed the perfect route to go that would also resonate with the look of the Rangers and the religious caste Minbari and the whole feel we were setting up.
It was only when I was about halfway into the act that I thought, "Oh, crud, this is the same area Canticle explored." And for several days I set it aside and strongly considered dropping it, or changing the venue (at one point considered setting it in the ruins of a university, but I couldn't make that work realistically...who'd be supporting a university in the ruins of a major nuclear war? Who'd have the *resources* I needed? The church, or what would at least LOOK like the church. My sense of backstory here is that the Anla-shok moved in and started little "abbeys" all over the place, using the church as cover, but rarely actually a part of it, which was why they had not gotten their recognition, and would never get it. Rome probably didn't even know about them, or knew them only distantly.)
Anyway...at the end of the day, I decided to leave it as it was, since I'd gotten there on an independent road, we'd already had a number of monks on B5, and there's been a LOT of theocratic science fiction written beyond Canticle...Gather Darkness, aspects of Foundation, others."
I hate it when I realize after the fact that it was rifting off something else. But the world needs more theocratic science fiction anyway, so you'll get no complaints from me. Also, it amuses the hell out of me that the Catholic Church is the one to survive the apocalypse.
"Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict."
We're just gonna stick around till the end of the universe, thanks. Cause we like that.
"What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence)."
At least they aren't a dying race. <3
"I think it's fair to say that Sinclair has been in large measure forgotten by Earth by the time of Deconstruction...but Valen lives on in the memories of the Minbari...a reasonable trade-off."
Valen does seem a bit more important, lol. And considering that's when he found his purpose in life, I don't think Sinclair would mind.
For an episode that was made to replace the finale when they realized they'd get another season, I thought it was quite well done. I actually really like this one, for various reasons.
So thus ends season four. It twas a good season. <3
Between the Darkness and Light:
"It's a nice, quiet little episode.
Well, at least, in comparison to what's coming...."
Liar.
"Was this episode filmed after Claudia Christian decided to leave?
Negative. We'd finished all S4 shooting at the time this occured."
T_T
"Was there a scene missing between Sheridan shooting the guard and his arrival on the Minbari ship?
Yes, there was a small scene that got cut for time.
Good catch."
Really? Now I'm wondering what that scene was.
"The Garibaldi material through the map sequence with Number One was originally in "Intersections." It got shunted over to 419 when 418 ran 7-8 minutes long, and 419 ran 8 minutes short."
Really? That's convenient. Also, I think it works better in this episode, rather than interrupting the other episode. Intersections is much more effective that way.
"During the interrogation, the female interrogator said, "Put a bullet in his head." But Earth uses PPGs now, not bullets.
Nope. We've established (in Grey 17 is Missing, for instance) that guns are still used on Earth and elsewhere; but in a space station, you don't want a slug-thrower because it tends to a) ricochet a lot off metal walls, or b) cut through something vital that would breach the hull potentially."
Besides, put a bullet in his head sounds so much better than a ppg round to the head. Though, in the books they offer another reason to use bullets planet side. Namely, ppg's are pretty explosive during a rainfall. Energy weapons and water just don't mix.
"About Ivanova's eidetic memory
She's a latent telepath. About a P1. As has been established on the show in the past. That gives her a slight edge in many areas. Also, an eidetic memory does not equal facility with language. I have a somewhat eidetic memory. I can usually remember visuals and things said to me with extreme clarity. (Unless I'm in convention mode at the time, at which point all bets are off.) But I have a real problem with learning languages, which involves not just memorization, but *translation,* which is a skill, a knack that some others have and some don't. (Spanish rolled off me, but for some reason I have a knack for German, though my vocabulary's gone all to hell.)"
Hm. I wonder where I fall on this spectrum. I'm definitely not totally eidetic, because I don't have total recall. But I am called MemoryDragon for a reason. Well. Technically, it was for plotty character reasons, but I do apparently live up to the name in most cases. Unlike Cy, who I do love very much.
""These new EA ships with Shadow tech...Are they susceptible to telepaths like the shadow vessels were?"
Negative...they don't have living beings as CPUs, they're still working at adapting the basic tech, the other stuff is still a bit advanced.
"By the way, the EA adaptation to the shadow tech is accurately done. Keep the basic Omega design and modify where needed."
Got it in one."
You know, I was about to say the letter Omega has been completely ruined for me by fandom, except I've fought the Omega weapon too many times to pin that one totally on fandom. Between that and the Ultima weapon, I have cursed many an optional boss. Also, wtf? Omega weapon is a random encounter in X-2? All the more reason to hate FFX and it's sequel... Also, back on the original topic, nice points, commenter.
"The Advanced destroyer group was still somewhat in the works when they hauled it out to go after the fleet. They'd been expecting mainly to go after other Earth ships (as was noted in the episode), and didn't count on exclusively being confronted by Whitestars. Still, there were a lot of them here, and they did a lot of damage by sheer force of numbers.
Corwin would be running the station in everyone's absence."
Corwin, far more BAMF than anyone realizes.
"About Ivanova's speech
Yeah, it was a bit over the top, deliberately so.
I put it in the category of a boxer who's going up against an opponent who may be well matched...and wants to psych the other person out.
If you look at "Give me liberty or give me death!" or similar statements, made to rally support or make a point, they're generally bigger than life, a bit over the top. That's so we can know where the top is so we can climb up there ourselves."
Over the top? Yeah. Completely BAMF so that it works anyway? Totally. I put this one on the show's two most BAMF moments list. Do not mess with Delenn and Ivanova. They will kick your ass.
"Some have complained about the rescue, arguing that they wanted to see a big battle. (To which answer #1 is wait 7 days.) They wanted to see the fleet smack Mars and free him in a big battle.
Well, if you do that, you can kiss goodbye any chance of the fleet then doing what it's SUPPOSED to be doing, which is the liberation of Earth. While they're tied up and planetbound (on one side) at Mars, Earth swoops in and knocks them out. You also lose any possible aspect of surprise.
It *had* to be done quickly, through the back door, rather than the fleet that some might have been expecting, so it'd look like a Resistance job, not a Fleet job."
Besides, going through the front door? Really wasting resources there. More people would have died. It makes practical sense to me.
""Why were there no cameras monitoring Sheridan?"
Torturers rarely videotape their work, thus assuring that it can never be used against them should things not go their way all the time. This is kinda pro forma in South America, for instance."
Hm, that's something I never really thought about. Makes sense.
Ivanova. T_T Though you have to love G'kar and Londo working together. Plus, one of Lyta's best lines. It is so very good to have Garibaldi back too.
Endgame:
Extreme Spoiler episode. Be warned.
From the Analysis:
"The parallel between Greek myth and Sheridan's command of the Agamemnon has further resonance here, especially the variant in which Agamemnon's daughter Iphigenia is saved from death by Artemis. Marcus, a self-described virgin ("The Summoning") has brought Ivanova back from the dead (assuming the alien device does in fact successfully revive her.) What parallel, if any, there will be with the rest of the myth -- Iphigenia living the rest of her life in a distant temple, far from her family -- remains to be seen."
Hm. You're stretching it a bit much. Though I do have a soft spot for Iphigenia. I'm a bit more fond of the ending where she actually dies though. Cause, ya know, tragedy.
"The episode seemed rushed.
Okay, one general response here...people are seeing rush where in many cases there is NOT a rush. Look, pay attention here: WE'RE IN THE FOURTH ACT OF THE EARTH CYCLE. Like the fourth act of an episode, you have to really start cranking. You want it to be at white-heat once you hit the ground.
What's in Endgame, and most of Between... was always going to be there, with or without a 5th season. I made my trims in the period PRIOR TO these episodes, for the most part.
This is the culmination of something we've been building now for three years, and I'm going to make it as damned fast-paced as I can.
So don't go into this assuming it was rushed...it's *fast*, and that's the difference here.
People complain when we do character stories that the arc isn't moving fast enough...people complain that it's moving too fast when the arc is in full gear...sombody get a concensus going here, okay?"
Nope. No consensus will be reached. You will forever have to defend yourself from both sides. XD
"How did you fit so much into one hour?
It's one of those things I don't know if I can explain adequately, or sensibly. A lot of it is totally instinctive, I don't sit down and think about it, I just do it. But to dissect...part of it is the intensity of the scenes, I think. Strong emotion extends time, stretches it; if you've ever been in a major traumatic situation, a few minutes can seem like hours. The more you can put your character into a situation of intense emotions, and create those same emotions in the viewer, you will in effect slow down perceived time. Also, there's the matter of context here. If you've set something up in prior episodes, in something like "Endgame" there's no set-up which means exposition and chews up time; you go right for the high point in the story bell-curve, and you stay there. So the part you're used to seeing take only a few minutes at the end of an episode becomes almost the entirety of the episode; same result."
I think I'm definitely too wordy for that technique. Ah, well. I can build things up in other ways.
"The Mars surface effects looked different.
Actually, most of the prior mars shots were done by an outside contractor, who's been doing such shots for the history of the show. NDEI's boys wanted a chance to do them, and did so.
They're not bad...we still need to improve a bit on the movements, and the camera still moves a bit too fast, which gives it that computer-y feel...but overall, not bad."
This falls into my smile and nod category. ^^;;;
"Has Mars' air pressure been increased so pressure suits are no longer needed?
My feeling is that there's been some small terraforming, which has helped a little, but there's still a long way to go."
I shall take your word on that. Also, full pressure suits really aren't stylish, so it works for me.
"Wouldn't the ship's quartermaster notice a frozen telepath arriving?
In something like this, you don't move unless you have the main quartermaster at the Mars base ON YOUR SIDE. You stuff it all into cargo loaders and crates, and ship it up. Have you ever seen military shipments? I looked into this, and security for big crates like this is done *at the point of shipping*."
So, basically, Marsies are still easy to bribe. XD
""What was needed was at least talk of a major Mars resistance attack occuring at the same time to draw off the security."
There was. Go back to the scene on the Apollo when the first word of attacks comes in...it says specifically that they're hitting a number of places *including* a White Star hitting that particular base."
I... When did you get the feeling the Mars Resistance wasn't doing anything? Some people baffle me.
"Why didn't Sheridan send another ship after Marcus?
You don't send a ship away to chase one person when you're going into a battle. You don't KNOW what ships you are and aren't going to need. In theory you took everything you had because you thought you needed it. Yeah, Marcus was a friend, but a lot of friends would die this day. You think he would put Marcus's situation ahead of the fleet? Isolate one ship and risk it to go after him? Ever been in the military? You talk about it, but what you propose doesn't make sense. Would Patton have sent back a tank because somebody fell behind? No."
Marucs. T_T Also, another thing I thought was well portrayed to the point of totally not needing that question, but hey.
"Why did Marcus have to do what he did?
In this case, it ties very much into this character's background...and would, in another universe in which CC decided to stay, have spun out into some rather interesting developments."
Why do you torment us with these sorts of comments? T_T I want this AU and the Takashima one.
""Well, unless its a coincidence, the "circled doodled message left by madman after he commits suicide" is VERY similar to what happens in Dr. Strangelove. Again, maybe its JMS's homage to Kubrick (like the "2001" style spacesuit that appeared in a second or third season episode, I forget which, of B5)."
Just to clarify this....
Re: the note...the script as written calls only for the finding of a note with the words "scorched earth" on it. It was John Copeland's idea to do the note as shown, and yes, he's said quite openly over on AOL that it was his nod to Strangelove. (John directed that episode.)
Re: the suit...that wasn't an intentional 2001 nod...we went to Modern Props to get a space suit for Babylon Squared, and the only one they had on hand that would work for us was one left-over from 2010, which I asked the folks in costume to change as much as possible...though it was pretty much what it was regardless. So that one wasn't intentional."
I still need to watch Strangelove. Some day. Also, the space suit... Aw. Sometimes there just ain't much you can do.
""...the symmetry and symbolism in how you structured that final battle. The story of Babylon 5 basically started with the Minbari fleet coming to Earth to destroy it at the Battle of the Line. To have the Minbari fleet return to Earth, not to destroy humanity, but to save it, especially along side Earth fighters and capital ships was stunning."
Noticed that little touch, did you....?
What goes around, comes around."
Intelligent commenters are so rare in these commentaries. I figured I'd add this one because of that. XD
"Lefcourt does not think that his job is to set policy or overthrow presidents. The military executes orders that emanate from the head of the government, through the chain of command. Once that chain of command was changed, the orders were no longer valid."
Lefcourt was just one of those people you wanted to shake, but couldn't hate. Still, he got outsmarted in the end.
"Why wasn't Clark allowed to present his point of view, even at the end?
I tried to do it through his lieutenants and plenepotentiaries (hope I spelled that right, I'm too tired to get the dictionary down). ISN gives you his point of view, ditto for Nightwatch, MiniPax, others. I think if I had him just saying it out loud, it would diminish him much the way that repeated exposure to the shadow vessels gradually removed their mystery and menace. Less is more."
I'm pretty sure we still got Hitler's point of view, despite not knowing German. Besides, I like not seeing his face at all.
"About the return of the old ISN anchor
"I've been thinking about the rapidity of her return to ISN. I agree that there wasn't time to break her out of prison and get her old dressing room back for the morning news"
When the Soviet Union fell, and the prison doors were thrown open, a number of reporters who had fallen out of favor with the Party and were sitting in cells walked out, went across the street, and went on the air within a matter of hours.
Humans are resilient and determined sorts."
Besides, I liked her coming back. It was a nice touch to have the original actress return to it.
Marcus. T_T I'll admit, I cried myself to sleep the first time I saw this episode. But at least we have Garibaldi snark to fall back on.
Rising Star:
""If this had been it, I would've walked away with a great big smile and a full heart."
Exactly..it doesn't *end* the story, as people kept saying, "Oh, the arc is being finished in year 4," it provides a sense of *resolution*, which is different altogether, and leaves plenty of room for other planned stuff."
It was Nar's comment too. XD
"President Luchenko's accent sounded fake.
I love comments like that.
Beata, who played the President, is a native-born Russian.
Ed. note: Beata Pozniak was actually born in Gdansk, Poland, not Russia. The accent is her own, however."
He has way too much fun pointing that sort of thing out. XD Hell, so would I, but hey.
"If Marcus had survived, it would have been a copout.
As for Marcus, that's precisely the point. If we do what we do to Ivanova, then let her get bailed out, then do the same for Marcus, it becomes a double-cheat, and that's not fair to do to the audience. If you bail her out but only at great cost to someone else, it's not a cheat on either level.
And yeah, generally, if you follow the threads, you can pick up on where things are going. It's something I learned on Murder, She Wrote, where at the end, when the killer's been revealed, you should be able to back up the tape, watch it again, and this time see all the little bits that point to his (or her) identity. It's basically about playing fair with the audience."
Which is why you write a fix-it fanfic. *shakes head* Still, you didn't have Marcus wake up in her life time, so it's not quite a cop out. You just write ridiculous fix-it fic because you are that sort of precious.
"It was hard doing that to the character [of Marcus], but it was the only way to handle the situation with any integrity and honesty. Very hard to write."
I feel absolutely no sympathy for you on this, just so you know.
"Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen, looking for something worth throwing his life away on because he could find little worth in his own."
Marcus. T_T
"Why did Lennier tell Delenn what Ivanova said?
Because Lennier is quite familiar with the concept of unrequited love, and because hope burns eternal.
Which is probably the most damnable part of unrequited love."
*pats Lennier* Oh, sweetling...
"Was the shot of Claudia Christian at the end from another episode, inserted when she decided not to return?
No, that's a new shot (Claudia at the window). She was shot for that episode for that voice-over...we just changed one line. The basic thrust was that she was going to take some time to *decide* whether to take on B5, or to take on a Warlock class destroyer. So we just went with the decision."
And so we lost the awesome that is Ivanova. It is the ultimate tragedy. Though, admittedly, she escaped the Bryon thing because of it, which is always a plus. And while Lochley wasn't quite as awesome as Ivanova, she still rocked quite a bit.
"Everything's wrapped up now. What's left to do in season five?
Things that *could* show up (leaving in some ambiguity just to keep some surprises):
The start of the telepath war
The start of drakh war
Londo's fate on Centauri Prime
The first year trying to make the Interstellar Alliance work
Inter-faction fighting among the Alliance members
The development of Mars as an independent state
The legacy of William Edgars' black projects
Fallout from the civil war, and the feelings about it
How Lennier, Sheridan and Delenn will get along now
How's that just for starters?"
You silly person, thinking there's nothing left for season 5. He has stated before that he was just as interested in after the war as during, so it makes sense to me.
"The Rangers are independent in authority, answering only to Delenn and Sheridan and the members of the Alliance council and advisory board. (In roughly descending order.) But their jurisdiction is exclusively in interplanetary situations between various member races. Each member race has the sovereign authority to govern its people in its own way.
The closest comparison is that overall, the states are free to enact their own laws, but the US Government has sole claim over international matters. Except here the states would have far more autonomy than is currently the rule; more like pre-Civil War America."
Hm, an interesting analogy. Especially since the States do like their rights.
"Is Sheridan and Delenn's bed horizontal or tipped up in the Minbari style?
They will alternate, as you'll see soon...."
Translation: How are we supposed to write our fanfic porn? Answer: Go nuts! XD
Oh, this episode. It's heartbreaking. I really wanted an Ivanova icon with that quote on there, but sadly all of the good icons changed the quote to 'not unrequited'. Which just offended me. Sigh. I tried.
The Deconstruction of Falling Stars:
"Why was Claudia Christian's name taken out of the credits but Jason Carter's left in?
We had no choice. Contractually, when we moved "Sleeping in Light" into the fifth season, we had to move her credit from "Deconstruction" or incur an additional episode's payment. We didn't even realize this until WB called and put us on notice about this literally 3 days before the episode was uplinked. It wasn't a choice we had; they said that it had to be moved. We could leave Jason in the credits because he didn't appear in SiL."
That's sadness. Contracts are sometimes a pain in the ass, I guess.
"Since this episode was numbered 422 rather than 501, will the production numbers of season 5 episodes be changed too?
Yes, the S5 episodes will be renumbered prior to broadcast.
More Soviet Revisionism in action...."
In Soviet Narn, the episodes renumber you. XD
"Do you ever get the urge to thumb your nose at people on the net who predict B5's demise?
Nope...no intentions of doing that.
I have something MUCH better in mind...."
*raises eyebrow* JMS, I have read your forward on the DVD's. It was the equivalent. So forgive me if I don't believe you. XD
"A few people have interpreted the final card as "meanspirited" (when it's on one level a reaction *to* five years of constant carping and meanspiritedness from lots of sectors, from the nets to the press and elsewhere)...but what it is, is a statement of hope. That whenever you try something different, there are going to be naysayers, and people who say it can't be done, and certainly can't be done by *you*.
It ain't just B5, it's any dream out there.
And in the end, they are wrong.
Faith manages.
That's the message of the card.
That, and the truth that in 10 years the naysayers will be forgotten, and made irrelevant...but the show, the *show*...goes on. And will be around long after they and I have gone to dust. And all people will know when they see that card, 50 years from now, was that some jerks said it couldn't be done, and they were wrong, because they are *always* wrong. If you have the dream, the ability and the passion, you can bring your dreams to life despite overwhelming opposition. That's the message.
But for those on the other side, they will never see anything other than meanspiritedness because that's all they can *ever* see...because that's all they can bring to the table.
There's an old saying about books, which I'll rephrase to include B5: Babylon 5 is like a book, and a book is like a mirror: if an ass peers in, you can't exactly expect an apostle to peer out."
Um... why are we caring about being mean spirited to flamers anyway? Besides, it didn't seem mean spirited to me. Unbearably smug, yes, but not mean spirited. XD Also, I really love that last like about a book being like a mirror.
"There will always be short-term setbacks, but as long as we climb back a few inches higher than we were before we fell down, we keep moving toward the goal of becoming a better people, and getting off the planet. Taking our place among the stars. While it's vaguely possible that I may *see* a Mars colony sometime within my lifetime, I know that I will never live there...but that ain't the point, it isn't a victory if *I* do it, and a failure if *I* don't, it's if *we* do it or not. Maybe we'll do it today, maybe we'll do it tomorrow, the point is to decide to DO it, and then by god DO IT.
And yeah, that little closing card is going to remain on the show for its life...which will be long, long after its detractors (and admittedly myself) have gone to dust. On the one hand, it is a statement of hope to anyone else out there who has a dream, to follow it no matter who speaks against you, no matter the odds, no matter what they say to or about you, no matter what roadblocks they throw in your way. What matters is that you remain true to your vision.
On the other hand, for the reviewers and the pundits and the critics and the net-stalkers who have done nothing but rag on this show for five years straight, it is also a giant middle finger composed of red neon fifty stories tall, that will burn forever in the night.
In billiards, we call that a bank-shot."
*Snickers* Yeah, that's what I thought. Giant middle finger.
"Does the Great Burn mean the B5 crew ultimately failed?
It depends on your point of view.
The fact, as I see it, is that no one and nothing will ever solve all of our problems at once, now and forever. People will always be people. You can't wave a magic wand and fix it all.
Yes, there was another war...but had the Shadows not been stopped by our characters, there likely wouldn't have been a human race at ALL anymore.
Yes, there was a war, and many died in it...as tends to happen in war...but the nominal right side in it came out on top, which would not have been the case but for Garibaldi's simulacra giving them a leg up on things.
We have had, continue to have, and will always have wars, and grief, and struggle...we will climb up and fall down...but each time we climb a little higher, and in the end, we *do* build the world that our ancestors would have wanted for us...we *do* leave the cradle at last, and we take our place among the stars teaching those who follow us.
For my money, that's as happy an ending as we or anyone can ever hope for."
Question: You're blaming B5 for something that happens that long after it was destroyed? Really? Also, I tend to agree with the inability to fix things with that sort of magical wand.
"You spoiled the events of season five!
As with anything else, B5 (in whatever incarnation) is about *process*. You saw Londo being strangled by G'Kar...but you didn't know how they got there. You know the result of the Earth/Minbari war...but I suspect there will be a lot of surprises in "In the Beginning."
As with all things, the joy is in the going. We all know we're going to die, that as the poet said, "we are born astride the grave." But knowing that inevitable reality has never stopped human endeavor before....
It's the journey and the doing that matters."
It amuses me that people can't tell the difference between foreshadowing and spoilers. It's not spoilers when the writer introduces it into canon. *rolls eyes*
"From a discussion of a 1997 convention featuring Stephen Furst
BTW, if you want to flip Stephen out, and you get this before leaving the con, give him the following message from me (I don't have the hotel info at hand). Tell him Joe says this:
"Don't worry anymore about using mainly securecam style coverage in act 3, I've just come up with another approach where I can cover it in dialogue to let you do whatever you want with the camera, so you'll have all the flexibility there you want."
Here's a use of a convention you haven't seen much before...."
lol. Do I even want to know what that was about?
"How did Delenn get into the studio?
Most TV studios that I've seen have back doors that open out onto the back lot or the outside for fire control reasons. You can get into any of the 3 B5 stages from the outside in, oh, about 5 seconds through any of a number of doors. (Note to anyone looking on: yes, those stage doors are secured, and there are guards, and unless you're a Minbari you're not getting in.) And most of the TV studios I've been in have been the same."
She got in by being BAMF, most likely by telling whoever was on duty to get the hell out of her way. I mean, seriously, would you say no to Delenn? I thought not.
"Wouldn't the colonies offer Earth some help?
Some probably would offer to help...but if technology is now suspect, some might not want that help...other colonies might be of the "screw 'em, they got what they deserved" perspective...often politics gets in the way of charity."
Yeah, I wouldn't imagine trusting any outsiders after an event like that.
""By any chance, is the post-apocalyptic religious order shown in "Deconstruction . ." a direct decendant of Brother Theo's order on Babylon 5?"
It's altogether possible....
And Theo is only awaiting a story worth bringing him in for."
YES. MOAR THEO. Sadly, he never returned. But I am all for more Brother Theo.
"Interesting aside...for the last 6-8 months, I've been doing a fair amount of research into medieval England, especially the medieval church, for a play I'm writing (which may become a novel if I'm not careful). Dumped several hundred dollars on a massive order from Amazon.com back a few months ago to fill out what I needed. That was what tangentially led me into the post-Burn sequence in "Deconstruction." My brain has been full of monks for the last 8 months or so, and knowing the role they played in maintaining secular knowledge from about 500 AD and for some time thereafter, that seemed the perfect route to go that would also resonate with the look of the Rangers and the religious caste Minbari and the whole feel we were setting up.
It was only when I was about halfway into the act that I thought, "Oh, crud, this is the same area Canticle explored." And for several days I set it aside and strongly considered dropping it, or changing the venue (at one point considered setting it in the ruins of a university, but I couldn't make that work realistically...who'd be supporting a university in the ruins of a major nuclear war? Who'd have the *resources* I needed? The church, or what would at least LOOK like the church. My sense of backstory here is that the Anla-shok moved in and started little "abbeys" all over the place, using the church as cover, but rarely actually a part of it, which was why they had not gotten their recognition, and would never get it. Rome probably didn't even know about them, or knew them only distantly.)
Anyway...at the end of the day, I decided to leave it as it was, since I'd gotten there on an independent road, we'd already had a number of monks on B5, and there's been a LOT of theocratic science fiction written beyond Canticle...Gather Darkness, aspects of Foundation, others."
I hate it when I realize after the fact that it was rifting off something else. But the world needs more theocratic science fiction anyway, so you'll get no complaints from me. Also, it amuses the hell out of me that the Catholic Church is the one to survive the apocalypse.
"Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict."
We're just gonna stick around till the end of the universe, thanks. Cause we like that.
"What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence)."
At least they aren't a dying race. <3
"I think it's fair to say that Sinclair has been in large measure forgotten by Earth by the time of Deconstruction...but Valen lives on in the memories of the Minbari...a reasonable trade-off."
Valen does seem a bit more important, lol. And considering that's when he found his purpose in life, I don't think Sinclair would mind.
For an episode that was made to replace the finale when they realized they'd get another season, I thought it was quite well done. I actually really like this one, for various reasons.
So thus ends season four. It twas a good season. <3