More stupid from dog.com
"Most everyone here uses PR and does well with it, but I think you're all silly, so I decided to use my dog as an experiment. I chose the nearest, cheapest positive trainer without doing any research into positive methods or good trainers vs. bad trainers."
I am probably known here as someone skeptical of the status quo with regards the positive reinforcement ideology. However, I really do give these methods a chance - I had been taking my pup to an 8 week PR training course for several weeks. It all looked fairly harmless and sensible.
"I don't know enough about dog behavior to notice warning signs for myself, and this person was a TRAINER! TRAINERS are gods, and should be all knowing. Don't all trainers have to be good?"
My pup was introducing herself to the trainer's dog who was considerably older and larger (and presumably a shining example of the results of PR training). My dog was sniffing his neck and generally being excitable around the older dog (not jumping up or pawing or mouthing - just sniffing excitedly and getting very close). The dog was quite tolerant at first of the pup but soon began to express some discomfort by barking loudly. I was convinced this was enough socializing for now but the trainer encouraged me to persist with the introduction.
"This was not a warning. The trainer *knows* her dog, right? Maybe the dog just likes to bark loudly. After all, my puppy is perfect and would never annoy anyone. This dog is totally unpredictable and horrible and never gives a warning before it snaps (I'll bet it's a PITT BULL!!!!)."
Suddenly her dog snapped viciously several times at my pup and my pup screamed for about 30 seconds. I raced towards my pup to check if she was ok. The owner acted like nothing had happened and told me I should have ignored it. My pup looked fine at first and the trainer explained she just got a fright and that pups need to learn boundaries. I found this very unusual given the intensity and length of her squealing. I eventually reasoned perhaps she had until now thought all big dogs were loving guardians with infinite boundaries, and this was just a tough love lesson all dogs needed to learn.
A little later on in the class blood starts to drip from her mouth. After looking more closely I saw that she had been bitten right through the lip.
"Because this woman doesn't know what she's doing, PR has failed, again. If this woman had hit her dog, or shocked him, he would not have injured my puppy. The best way to take care of reactive dogs is to punish them. Listening when they beg you to remove the obnoxious puppy from their face would *never* work."
Look it is all very well letting dogs be dogs and letting humans be the Gods or Goddesses of canine love and mercy, and rewarding them for good behavior and ignoring bad behavior but that dog needed to have an imprint trained into his mind that if he attacks puppies savagely, he will pay a price - to make him think twice about doing it again and to try to invent another coping strategy. This bite could have easily pierced her eye or nose if her head had been positioned differently. Obviously I don't blame the dog itself for this very doggy reaction. My pup is enough to drive any dog insane at times and she needs to be taught to show restraint, but it is clear that that dog has never been trained to curb or deflect its natural instincts. Some behaviors can simply NOT be ignored. Some might say the trainer should have had the sense to discourage further contact with the dog - well that is true, but it only goes to show PR fails in this circumstance as a training tool.
Dog snaps at pup => Zap! or Smack! Bad dog. Dog associates snapping with traumatic outcomes. Dog won't gamble away a treat for the easy way out of its problems in future.
Dog walks away and/or growls loudly at pup until pup goes away => Dog is given reward. Good dog. Dog associates non-violent solutions with positive outcomes. Puppy learns lesson about respecting boundaries.
"In conclusion, all PR trainers are stupid, and all of you are stupid. You don't live in the REAL WORLD, like my dog and I do... We have *distractions* and *variables*! I know that you don't, in your perfect world."
Needless to say I will NOT be taking my pup back to that class or any class that relies solely on positive reinforcement. I am sure PR alone works great in a vacuum absent the day-by-day realities of an urban dog's life.
"Of course, this has nothing to do with my bias."
(Note: If there are some skeptics out there who think I am making this all up to suit my stance about PR, I will glady upload a picture of my dog's wound while she is standing in front of this forum post)
I am probably known here as someone skeptical of the status quo with regards the positive reinforcement ideology. However, I really do give these methods a chance - I had been taking my pup to an 8 week PR training course for several weeks. It all looked fairly harmless and sensible.
"I don't know enough about dog behavior to notice warning signs for myself, and this person was a TRAINER! TRAINERS are gods, and should be all knowing. Don't all trainers have to be good?"
My pup was introducing herself to the trainer's dog who was considerably older and larger (and presumably a shining example of the results of PR training). My dog was sniffing his neck and generally being excitable around the older dog (not jumping up or pawing or mouthing - just sniffing excitedly and getting very close). The dog was quite tolerant at first of the pup but soon began to express some discomfort by barking loudly. I was convinced this was enough socializing for now but the trainer encouraged me to persist with the introduction.
"This was not a warning. The trainer *knows* her dog, right? Maybe the dog just likes to bark loudly. After all, my puppy is perfect and would never annoy anyone. This dog is totally unpredictable and horrible and never gives a warning before it snaps (I'll bet it's a PITT BULL!!!!)."
Suddenly her dog snapped viciously several times at my pup and my pup screamed for about 30 seconds. I raced towards my pup to check if she was ok. The owner acted like nothing had happened and told me I should have ignored it. My pup looked fine at first and the trainer explained she just got a fright and that pups need to learn boundaries. I found this very unusual given the intensity and length of her squealing. I eventually reasoned perhaps she had until now thought all big dogs were loving guardians with infinite boundaries, and this was just a tough love lesson all dogs needed to learn.
A little later on in the class blood starts to drip from her mouth. After looking more closely I saw that she had been bitten right through the lip.
"Because this woman doesn't know what she's doing, PR has failed, again. If this woman had hit her dog, or shocked him, he would not have injured my puppy. The best way to take care of reactive dogs is to punish them. Listening when they beg you to remove the obnoxious puppy from their face would *never* work."
Look it is all very well letting dogs be dogs and letting humans be the Gods or Goddesses of canine love and mercy, and rewarding them for good behavior and ignoring bad behavior but that dog needed to have an imprint trained into his mind that if he attacks puppies savagely, he will pay a price - to make him think twice about doing it again and to try to invent another coping strategy. This bite could have easily pierced her eye or nose if her head had been positioned differently. Obviously I don't blame the dog itself for this very doggy reaction. My pup is enough to drive any dog insane at times and she needs to be taught to show restraint, but it is clear that that dog has never been trained to curb or deflect its natural instincts. Some behaviors can simply NOT be ignored. Some might say the trainer should have had the sense to discourage further contact with the dog - well that is true, but it only goes to show PR fails in this circumstance as a training tool.
Dog snaps at pup => Zap! or Smack! Bad dog. Dog associates snapping with traumatic outcomes. Dog won't gamble away a treat for the easy way out of its problems in future.
Dog walks away and/or growls loudly at pup until pup goes away => Dog is given reward. Good dog. Dog associates non-violent solutions with positive outcomes. Puppy learns lesson about respecting boundaries.
"In conclusion, all PR trainers are stupid, and all of you are stupid. You don't live in the REAL WORLD, like my dog and I do... We have *distractions* and *variables*! I know that you don't, in your perfect world."
Needless to say I will NOT be taking my pup back to that class or any class that relies solely on positive reinforcement. I am sure PR alone works great in a vacuum absent the day-by-day realities of an urban dog's life.
"Of course, this has nothing to do with my bias."
(Note: If there are some skeptics out there who think I am making this all up to suit my stance about PR, I will glady upload a picture of my dog's wound while she is standing in front of this forum post)