Okay, let's try this:

[bast_setesh]

This is a public post, much more civil than the last.

I must make a few things clear:

I do NOT feel I was unjustified for my actions earlier, however after talking to glitterygashes, I do know I was wrong. Marissa is actually a very nice, very smart, and very interesting girl, and I was mistaken about her intent. I do feel badly about upsetting her, as the

Comments

[heartofkara]

yes, I do feel as though the so-called "oppression" is the fault of modern-day women, and no, I was not brainwashed by the patriarchal society. I am not dismissing the fact that life for women is unfair; however there is nothing stopping women from changing that by making sacrifices and proving themselves to men.What you're saying is that a group that makes up half of the population that is already oppressed should make FURTHER sacrifices (something which is encouraged by patriarchy) to gain freedom instead of demanding it from those who opress us? I gotta tell you that those of us who are feminists DO make sacrifices, the only sense of "power" we're aloud to have in this patriarchy is by giving into it, like wearing a short skirt around the boss to get promoted or give into stereotypical roles to be accepted - a feminist is someone who not only believes in equal value for men, women, masculine, and feminine but lives it out each day...when we act in a feminist way instead of giving in to the "easier" route which would promote

[aristaea]

a group that makes up half of the population that is already oppressed should make FURTHER sacrifices (something which is encouraged by patriarchy) to gain freedom instead of demanding it from those who opress us?

Any group, semi-majority or not, with a valid claim to equality should have no difficulty in simply proving their value and worth and claim as equals. Nobody benefits from sitting around complaining; in fact, complaining about the "oppressive patriarchy" only makes feminists appear sulky and juvenile. It doesn't make women look good, and therefore it doesn't further the cause. I find that by simply acting in a manner commensurate with what I want-respect and acknowledgement from men based on my abilities-I tend to get what I want. And I work in academia, which is a traditionally male pursuit and still dominated by elderly men, especially in the areas I gravitate towards, which deal with "hard" sciences and engineering. I would never, never put on a miniskirt, or even a tight blouse or heels, in order to be taken seriously.

[heartofkara]

Is it fair that we have to do more to overcome this problem? No. But is it right? Yes. If you have a problem, then obviously it should be your responsibility to change it. It is our job as women to do what needs to be done in order to change the opinions of those who are "oppressing" us. That is how it always is. You can't click a button; you can't even write a pamphlet. No one will ever take women seriously if all we do is "demand" our "freedom". It's like a child demanding dessert: "Sure honey, but not until you eat your vegetables." Instead, we must take an active role in changing the world around us, and that doesn't mean complaining about it. It means showing people through our actions that there is a different way. So basically, women need to eat their vegetables before they get freedom.Oh I never said that we shouldn't have to FIGHT for our freedom - we do, it's the responsibility of anyone, man or woman, who believes in feminism to fight for the cause against those who stand for patriarchy (which includes some men and some

[aristaea]

Not everyone has the priviledge of being respected just for working hard

No, but then one should always make an effort to surround oneself with the best people one can find, the kind of people who will respect you for that; the kind of people whose opinions actually matter. And one should make an effort to demonstrate to others that this is the correct, most productive viewpoint; that people should be valued equally according to merit, and not according to gender. People who do not understand this are ultimately not worth one's time or attention. Remember that the feminist revolution is only just begun, and change in the hearts and minds of men takes time.

somehow became more aware of how repressed they are in our society DON'T find out

This is patently absurd. In our society-industrialised Western society- there is a probability of perhaps 0.0003 that a woman will be unfamiliar with feminism. Unless they are indoctrinated in some cult from birth, or Amish, or something else where they are sheltered from pop culture and the media

[heartofkara]

but then one should always make an effort to surround oneself with the best people one can find, the kind of people who will respect you for that; the kind of people whose opinions actually matter.This really sounds like a priviledged statement. Of course people pick their friends but there's more to it than that. Where you able to pick your family before birth? Sure you can rebel and cut them off despite how painful this is if they're completely anti-women's rights but lets move forward to what I was really refering to. If you were already financially stable then you can pick and choose where and where not to work, but if you're desperate for cash, say you've payed half of the rent with your single mom since you were able to work, can't go to college because you're working two full-time jobs just to keep bill-collectors at bay, pay for your children's food because you couldn't afford birth-control/abortion, etc. If you're that desperate for cash you might not be in a situation where you can pick and choose your job - you might your

[aristaea]

If you were already financially stable

*gigglesnort* Yeah. So not. I am simultaneously both an undergraduate and a graduate student, am in debt to the government like $30,000, I am not yet 21, and I have no actual job because no one wants to hire someone with no "practical" job skills and no high school diploma. But I am also a typically narcissistic Slytherin and I am a consummate intellectual snob, and I will not associate with people who have limited or purposely ignorant views. I might have to work with them, or be in the same classroom with them, but I do not have to socialise with them and I do not have to get along with them. They are not worth the air that I breathe or the water that I walk on. And yes, it came off as privileged. Of course it came off as privileged. The key to success, as successful people will tell you, is to always firmly believe that you are better than everyone around you. Be nice to them, be able to talk to them, but always remember that you are better than them. Surround yourself with good people, and

[glitterygashes]

"The key to success, as successful people will tell you, is to always firmly believe that you are better than everyone around you."

For someone who is opposed to surrounding themselves with "ignorant" people, that might be the most ignorant comment I have ever heard. Firmly believing that you are better than anyone else is extremely ignorant, because you're, well, ignorant of whether or not that is the truth.
I'm a fan of humility, though. There's a whole world of knowledge that we will NEVER have the capacity to fully understand.
There's more to people than their IQ or their education.

[aristaea]

Firmly believing that you are better than anyone else is extremely ignorant

It's not ignorant; it's arrogant. And it's what most people who have deep-seated self-esteem issues do in order to protect themselves from said issues. That's the hallmark of narcissistic personality disorder. First, you are failing to clarify exactly what "better" means; does it mean more intelligent, more adaptable, more social, more what? Second, just because you believe in something doesn't mean that you are blind to the facts surrounding that belief; the best beliefs are those built on solid foundations. If you see an honest superiority of whatever, then it would be ignorant to not believe and accept your own superiority. If you aren't really superior, then you aren't really being humble, because humility only works if you actually have something to be humble about-and if you are superior, then humility is a lie, isn't it

[glitterygashes]

The whole point of IQ is to test people's ability to learn.

And really, I wasn't saying anything that requires reading into or elaborating on. It's just very sad to limit yourself to socializing with only certain people based on certain things.
I understand that people with these issues most likely have some self-esteem problems, because that's the most obvious thing ever. If they are as smart as they say, they can understand this and have the knowledge of how to overcome it. Once someone overcomes this, they don't have the need to constantly tell themselves that they are superior to someone else.
EVERYONE can challenge you to think in new ways--absolutely anyone. There are opportunities to learn in every area of life. If you limit yourself, you could be missing out on so much.

[aristaea]

The whole point of IQ is to test people's ability to learn.

Really? Hundreds of intelligence researchers will be shocked and amazed that you've solved that problem so quickly. But whether or not that is the "point" of an IQ test-which is questionable, especially when one considers the historical origins of the traditional IQ test-has nothing to do with the validity of the measurement. I could say that the whole point of a set of pound scales is to measure the relative amounts of air, fire, water, and earth in a substance, but that wouldn't mean that I was actually measuring what I want, ideally, to measure. Similarly, I can claim whatever I want about what IQ tests are supposed to measure, but that has no bearing on what they actually do.

If you limit yourself, you could be missing out on so much.On the other hand, life itself is limited by time, and there is something to be said for experience. How likely is it that people who have, in the past, proven themselves useless will suddenly become valuable sources of knowledge and

[glitterygashes]

I wasn't saying whether or not the IQ test is valid. You said that what intelligence is, is the capacity/ability to learn, and I said that this is indeed what the IQ test is meant to measure. Whether it does or not doesn't matter to me

PART I

[heartofkara]

I will not associate with people who have limited or purposely ignorant views…The key to success, as successful people will tell you, is to always firmly believe that you are better than everyone around you…Surround yourself with good people, and then you will start to go places.
I said that you CAN pick who you socialize with but if you've got limited choices of where you can work and you must work you may NOT be able to choose who you work with. As far as always thinking you're better than everyone...that may make you successful but it also makes you more likely to ignore the suffering of others because, after all, you're more important. Oh, and you can surround yourself with good people who are not any more privileged than you and they still won’t be able to take you places no matter how good they are.

"Many women have HEARD of feminism but have NO CLUE what it's really about."
And has it occurred to you that this might be because the feminists can't even decide what it's really about?Possibly but I'm talking about the stereotype

PART II

[heartofkara]

But why don't you start by stating what you think feminism is really about, because then we'll have a common place to start. I think I agree with the notion that feminism is about true intellectual equality for both genders-because biologically speaking, there will always be insurmountable differences-and that it is equally in favour of men as it is of women. But it's called "feminism," so of course people don't understand what it's about. Especially when so many of the groups spawned from second wave feminism turned out to be militant and virulently anti-male.Firstly, many of the second-wave did NOT turn out militant or anti-male, a portion was and while I disagree with them I understand why they were