Okay, let's try this:
This is a public post, much more civil than the last.
I must make a few things clear:
I do NOT feel I was unjustified for my actions earlier, however after talking to glitterygashes, I do know I was wrong. Marissa is actually a very nice, very smart, and very interesting girl, and I was mistaken about her intent. I do feel badly about upsetting her, as the ( Read more... )
I must make a few things clear:
I do NOT feel I was unjustified for my actions earlier, however after talking to glitterygashes, I do know I was wrong. Marissa is actually a very nice, very smart, and very interesting girl, and I was mistaken about her intent. I do feel badly about upsetting her, as the ( Read more... )
Oh I never said that we shouldn't have to FIGHT for our freedom - we do, it's the responsibility of anyone, man or woman, who believes in feminism to fight for the cause against those who stand for patriarchy (which includes some men and some women)
I guess I missunderstood your first point because it sounded like "all" women are to blame. You're right in that you can't just sit around and whine about change - you have to fight for it, but that's not what came to mind when you said women have to "sacrifice" to get what they want.
Not everyone has the priviledge of being respected just for working hard unfortunatly so that does not always work but we do have a responsibility to do our best to CHANGE what we feel is wrong.
In more prosperous areas with better access to education, you don't find the same class divides and, significantly, you don't find the same opinions on gender equality. But that doesn't explain women who have all the benefits provided their feminist peers and still believe that women are inherently lesser than men; that can be attributed solely to personal beliefs and choice. Women, even those who grow up in oppressive environments, have choices.
If a woman has all of the benefits and knowledge of patriarchy and still believes that women are lesser than men they YES she has made her choice and is to blame for part of the problem. The problem is that many women, who would be infuriated and do more for change if they took women's studies courses or somehow became more aware of how repressed they are in our society DON'T find out, the only thing they know about feminism is the stereotypes the media have fed them and the rules and "truths" society and their families have taught them. They don't know that they are ignorant so I won't FULLY blame them - it's when, as you say, they "know" and DECIDE that women don't deserve better that they are part of the problem.
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No, but then one should always make an effort to surround oneself with the best people one can find, the kind of people who will respect you for that; the kind of people whose opinions actually matter. And one should make an effort to demonstrate to others that this is the correct, most productive viewpoint; that people should be valued equally according to merit, and not according to gender. People who do not understand this are ultimately not worth one's time or attention. Remember that the feminist revolution is only just begun, and change in the hearts and minds of men takes time.
somehow became more aware of how repressed they are in our society DON'T find out
This is patently absurd. In our society-industrialised Western society- there is a probability of perhaps 0.0003 that a woman will be unfamiliar with feminism. Unless they are indoctrinated in some cult from birth, or Amish, or something else where they are sheltered from pop culture and the media and basic education, ALL WOMEN IN WESTERN SOCIETY KNOW ABOUT FEMINISM. It is women in other societies that we must forgive for their ignorance, and even those days are drawing to a close. Any woman in Western society who is not in some way or another a proponent of equal rights for women is entirely to blame, because she knows about it and is choosing to ignore or disbelieve it. However, a woman from central Asia or Africa cannot be expected to have been exposed to feminism the way women in America and Europe have, and thus they cannot be wholly blamed for continuing to buy into cultural patriarchy.
However, do remember that the protofeminists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries were also raised in very strict, straight-laced environments where women were subjugated and relagated to menial labours. The Victorian bluestockings who eventually won the vote in England, who served as nurses during the Great War and went home and worked honest jobs and refused to marry and breed as good daughters were expected to-these women did not have the "benefits and knowledge of patriarchy." What they had was minds, and apperceptive ability, and they saw that their world was unfair, unjust, and inherently unequal. And they did something about it, all by themselves, because they looked and they thought and they got pissed as hell. And they changed the world. Every woman, rich or poor, educated or illiterate, half-free or desperately oppressed, has within her that seed of revolution-whether or not she understands the forces of patriarchy trying to hold her down.
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This really sounds like a priviledged statement. Of course people pick their friends but there's more to it than that. Where you able to pick your family before birth? Sure you can rebel and cut them off despite how painful this is if they're completely anti-women's rights but lets move forward to what I was really refering to. If you were already financially stable then you can pick and choose where and where not to work, but if you're desperate for cash, say you've payed half of the rent with your single mom since you were able to work, can't go to college because you're working two full-time jobs just to keep bill-collectors at bay, pay for your children's food because you couldn't afford birth-control/abortion, etc. If you're that desperate for cash you might not be in a situation where you can pick and choose your job - you might your your ass off and NOT move forward "just for working hard". You might be surrounded by macho misogynists who won't respect you no matter what you do - and sadly I've had MANY friends in these situations who really had NO CHOICE but to stay there because guess what, they HAD to pay their bills and working two-jobs doesn't really give you that much time to go to job interviews or take college courses. So sorry, but your statement came off as VERY priviledged.
there is a probability of perhaps 0.0003 that a woman will be unfamiliar with feminism. Unless they are indoctrinated in some cult from birth, or Amish, or something else where they are sheltered from pop culture and the media and basic education, ALL WOMEN IN WESTERN SOCIETY KNOW ABOUT FEMINISM.
I have to strongly disagree from personal experience. Many women have HEARD of feminism but have NO CLUE what it's really about. They will say things like "I'm not feminist but..." and then go on about women's rights. I have SADLY found out that MANY MANY MANY people in general have the stereotype that feminists are butch, man-hating, lesbians for the DOMINANCE of women over men - which, as anyone who knows what feminism is really about would know, is NOT the case at all!
Any woman in Western society who is not in some way or another a proponent of equal rights for women is entirely to blame, because she knows about it and is choosing to ignore or disbelieve it.
Like I said before, many INTELLIGENT women even these days think that the feminist revolution (assuming they even really know what it "really" stood for) is over and that what we have NOW really is equality. Until I took Women's Studies courses in college I really personally did not SEE how repressed women were in our society. Maybe I had a minor idea about body image and what-not but I didn't know about past coat-hanger abortions, about "the Second Sex" and how everything considered "female" or "feminine" is what's devalued in our society, about the wage gap, about how we really are NOT as "sexualy liberated" as we think we are, etc. You have to remember that we have all been raised in this patriarchy and while there are women who notice these inequalities on their own - I gotta tell you, judging by the reactions and looks of my fellow classmates in my Women's Studies classes, women and men are really brainwashed in this society and don't even REALIZE how messed up things are until they are shown or told.
Every woman, rich or poor, educated or illiterate, half-free or desperately oppressed, has within her that seed of revolution-whether or not she understands the forces of patriarchy trying to hold her down.
Maybe every woman is a force and definetly I'd say that more women nowadays, if they REALIZE they are being put down, will be more likely than in the past to stand up for themeselves. But as I've stated before, many many many of them don't know. Until they are educated about feminism and women's studies in school, BEFORE high school, the ignorance is going to continue and by the time they are educated they will have to "unprogram" their minds and resort everything they've learned.
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*gigglesnort* Yeah. So not. I am simultaneously both an undergraduate and a graduate student, am in debt to the government like $30,000, I am not yet 21, and I have no actual job because no one wants to hire someone with no "practical" job skills and no high school diploma. But I am also a typically narcissistic Slytherin and I am a consummate intellectual snob, and I will not associate with people who have limited or purposely ignorant views. I might have to work with them, or be in the same classroom with them, but I do not have to socialise with them and I do not have to get along with them. They are not worth the air that I breathe or the water that I walk on. And yes, it came off as privileged. Of course it came off as privileged. The key to success, as successful people will tell you, is to always firmly believe that you are better than everyone around you. Be nice to them, be able to talk to them, but always remember that you are better than them. Surround yourself with good people, and then you will start to go places. This is just as true for the Madison Avenue debutante as it is for the poor waitress working double shifts at the all-night diner.
Many women have HEARD of feminism but have NO CLUE what it's really about.
And has it occurred to you that this might be because the feminists can't even decide what it's really about?
as anyone who knows what feminism is really about
I dare you to find a consensus among ten experts on what "feminism" is really about. But why don't you start by stating what you think feminism is really about, because then we'll have a common place to start. I think I agree with the notion that feminism is about true intellectual equality for both genders-because biologically speaking, there will always be insurmountable differences-and that it is equally in favour of men as it is of women. But it's called "feminism," so of course people don't understand what it's about. Especially when so many of the groups spawned from second wave feminism turned out to be militant and virulently anti-male.
Until I took Women's Studies courses in college I really personally did not SEE how repressed women were in our society.
Which is somewhat ironic, because until I took Women's Studies courses in college, I really personally believed that women were very repressed in our society. My Women's Studies classes were apparently not at all like yours, because mine were full of raucous, unoppressed women with quick wits and razor-blade tongues. I don't know what patriarchy you were raised in, but I was raised in an republican oligarchy which just happened to be comprised mostly of men. But I was raised and taught by feminists, and so were my male classmates, and goshdarnit if we didn't get EQUAL RIGHTS near tattooed on our frontal lobes. The patriarchy is at least as much a psychological construct as it is a physical one, and this belief that women have in the power of the patriarchy gives it power. Just like any belief gives the object of faith power. If you think the patriarchy can have influence over you, then it will. If you think the patriarchy is there, then you will see it everywhere. It's kind of like God. As an agnostic scientist, I find it difficult to believe in both without tangible proof. Inequality? Sure. Oppressive patriarchy? Omgwtfpolarbear?
Until they are educated . . . the ignorance is going to continue
Yes, but what are you trying to educate them in? Fear and hatred of a construct that only partially exists in physical reality? Is that really what you want them to learn? Wouldn't it be more effective to teach them how to reason for themselves and let them find their own awareness of their situation in life? Indoctrinating women in feminism is as bad as indoctrinating them in ideal of patriarchy. We should let them choose. If we give them the right tools, the necessary education in logic and self-directed thought, they will eventually come to the sane conclusion: feminism. And they will get there on their own, and their faith in equality will be that much stronger for it.
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For someone who is opposed to surrounding themselves with "ignorant" people, that might be the most ignorant comment I have ever heard. Firmly believing that you are better than anyone else is extremely ignorant, because you're, well, ignorant of whether or not that is the truth.
I'm a fan of humility, though. There's a whole world of knowledge that we will NEVER have the capacity to fully understand.
There's more to people than their IQ or their education.
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It's not ignorant; it's arrogant. And it's what most people who have deep-seated self-esteem issues do in order to protect themselves from said issues. That's the hallmark of narcissistic personality disorder. First, you are failing to clarify exactly what "better" means; does it mean more intelligent, more adaptable, more social, more what? Second, just because you believe in something doesn't mean that you are blind to the facts surrounding that belief; the best beliefs are those built on solid foundations. If you see an honest superiority of whatever, then it would be ignorant to not believe and accept your own superiority. If you aren't really superior, then you aren't really being humble, because humility only works if you actually have something to be humble about-and if you are superior, then humility is a lie, isn't it?
To say the belief in superiority blinds one to the facts surrounding that belief is like saying that belief in a scientific theory blinds ones to the facts surrounding that theory. If it is a priori belief then it certainly can interfere with objective collection and analysis of data and lead to type I errors. But when the belief follows after collection of data, when it is a posteriori and based on empirical evidence, then it is a sound belief and one can hardly be faulted for having it.
There's a whole world of knowledge that we will NEVER have the capacity to fully understand.
Assuming that there is a limited capacity to human knowledge based on our three-dimensional relationship with reality-maybe. But some would posit that there are already ways in which we can move beyond our limiting physical dimensions and learn much more than we ever would have dreamt possible. Who is to say what may happen with advanced in technology and understanding of the universe?
There's more to people than their IQ or their education.
Yes, but the one thing that very intelligent people will have in common is not an IQ score-which any decent psychologist will tell you is a poor measure of an elusive construct to begin with-but their desire and ability to learn. Whether this is manifested in traditional education or sporadic self-acquired knowledge is of little concern; the fact is that you will still be able to converse with them in an intelligible manner and you will both learn something from the experience. Those are the kind of people you should have arround you. Not people who got striaght A's and dozens of awards, although those things are shiny and attractive. The people you want around you are the ones who challenge you to think in new ways, whose native intelligence compliments and concentrates your own.
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And really, I wasn't saying anything that requires reading into or elaborating on. It's just very sad to limit yourself to socializing with only certain people based on certain things.
I understand that people with these issues most likely have some self-esteem problems, because that's the most obvious thing ever. If they are as smart as they say, they can understand this and have the knowledge of how to overcome it. Once someone overcomes this, they don't have the need to constantly tell themselves that they are superior to someone else.
EVERYONE can challenge you to think in new ways--absolutely anyone. There are opportunities to learn in every area of life. If you limit yourself, you could be missing out on so much.
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Really? Hundreds of intelligence researchers will be shocked and amazed that you've solved that problem so quickly. But whether or not that is the "point" of an IQ test-which is questionable, especially when one considers the historical origins of the traditional IQ test-has nothing to do with the validity of the measurement. I could say that the whole point of a set of pound scales is to measure the relative amounts of air, fire, water, and earth in a substance, but that wouldn't mean that I was actually measuring what I want, ideally, to measure. Similarly, I can claim whatever I want about what IQ tests are supposed to measure, but that has no bearing on what they actually do.
If you limit yourself, you could be missing out on so much.
On the other hand, life itself is limited by time, and there is something to be said for experience. How likely is it that people who have, in the past, proven themselves useless will suddenly become valuable sources of knowledge and understanding?
Once someone overcomes this, they don't have the need to constantly tell themselves that they are superior to someone else.
Show me where, in the literature, it says that this is not actually a likely outcome of conditioning oneself to disbelieve innate opinions about self-worth.
and have the knowledge of how to overcome it
Also show me where, in any of the literature, or outside of it, there is any evidence whatsoever to suggest that intelligence, however you choose to measure it, is correlated with ability to overcome mental health problems. A great many intelligent people suffer from low self-esteem-and many of them deal with it by acting like megalomaniacs. Some of them just become so severely introverted and antisocial that it comes off as arrogance and snobbery. Just because you can understand something doesn't mean you can effectively counteract it; why do you think some people spend years in therapy and come out none the better for it? Even assuming that you can understand it, or even that you understand precisely what its origins are and the appropriate theoretical methods for overcoming it is no guarantee that you will be able to implement those measure, or that they will have the effect they are supposed to have. Psychology does not come with a warranty, and being sane has very little to do with being smart.
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Not everything needs to be addressed in the "literature." Some things are self-explanatory. I am not questioning whether or not intelligent people suffer mental health problems, because surely they do, but when they keep insisting that they are smarter and better than most people I automatically think that they're morons. That's just me. I honestly don't give a shit whether or not it's in the literature; I just hate arrogance. It must be a personal thing. I also don't care if it's in the damn "literature" that maybe arrogance is good (because lord knows there are probably studies like that), but I just personally find it disgusting.
So, logically, if they're better than most people (that's their claim) then they wouldn't have the mental setbacks that most people have. So all I'm saying is that they are still mere mortals. It looks as though you value snobbery and arrogance because you find that it is a drawback of intelligence. It's almost as if you feel that they are justified in thinking that way, because it's just what smart people do because they're suffering low self-esteem, when actually it's still maladaptive thinking, and normal people go through that, too. I'm ok with introversion and antisocial behaviors but I have a problem when people think they're better than someone else. I don't care if it's a sign of lack of self-esteem, when actions bother other people, I am bothered by it.
And really, there's no need to go into detail about it all, it's just my point of view. It's just that we're all more alike than some people would like to think.
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I said that you CAN pick who you socialize with but if you've got limited choices of where you can work and you must work you may NOT be able to choose who you work with. As far as always thinking you're better than everyone...that may make you successful but it also makes you more likely to ignore the suffering of others because, after all, you're more important. Oh, and you can surround yourself with good people who are not any more privileged than you and they still won’t be able to take you places no matter how good they are.
"Many women have HEARD of feminism but have NO CLUE what it's really about."
And has it occurred to you that this might be because the feminists can't even decide what it's really about?
Possibly but I'm talking about the stereotype that feminists are man-haters. And I disagree with you on the whole "the term should be equalist" or whatnot bit BECAUSE right now the FEMALE is what is degraded and what is FEMININE is degraded and thus we need a title that represents the oppressed.
My Women's Studies classes were apparently not at all like yours, because mine were full of raucous, unoppressed women with quick wits and razor-blade tongues...But I was raised and taught by feminists, and so were my male classmates…The patriarchy is at least as much a psychological construct as it is a physical one, and this belief that women have in the power of the patriarchy gives it power. … If you think the patriarchy is there, then you will see it everywhere…Oppressive patriarchy? Omgwtfpolarbear?
Well if you were taught by feminists then OF COURSE you would have known how unequal things STILL are. I was raised in a patriarchy with NO feminists, with the stereotype that feminism was something that happened in the 70's, and while knowledge of SOME inequalities but I definitely did not now of or notice all I do now.
If patriarchy is there, which I definitely think it is, then whether or not you KNOW about it-it will affect your life. I prefer to be aware of it and therefore try to act against it instead of unknowingly giving in - knowledge is power.
And yes I do believe we are living in an oppressive patriarchy but oppressive in a much more subtle way than the more OBVIOUS ways of before, which is again why many men AND women say "What the heck are you a feminist for? We already have equal rights!" they don't see/notice how women are still being repressed or if they do they do NOT notice the extent of it.
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Firstly, many of the second-wave did NOT turn out militant or anti-male, a portion was and while I disagree with them I understand why they were.
I agree that there are biological differences of the sexes that cause there to be different needs for men and women (and transgendered or intersexed folk as well). This society was created by men for men and it really needs to be redone from the ground up by men AND women FOR men AND women because that's who the population is, men were in charge before so they got to call all of the shots. As far as MY definition of feminism, this is the best way I've managed to phrase it: "Feminism is the belief that men and women, masculine and feminine, regardless of class, race, sexual orientation, or preference of lifestyle, as long as it does not infringe on the rights or others or harm them, should be equally valued both in mind and in practice." Also, while men and women are different there's the difference of biology and then there's the HUGE DIFFFERENCES caused by socialization. It's fine that certain traits "generally" fall easier to one sex or the other but each PERSON should be able to find what their INDIVIDUAL self best is (whether or not it encompasses stereotypically "masculine" or "feminine" traits).
Yes, but what are you trying to educate them in… Wouldn't it be more effective to teach them how to reason for themselves and let them find their own awareness of their situation in life?
What I meant by educating them was teaching them women's history along-side men's. Teaching them societies norm's along-side feminist thought so that from a young age, societies norms are not the ONLY norm in their head and they can choose on their own from their experiences what to believe - as opposed to be raised w/one set of ideals their whole lives and then NEVER seeing or understanding what others see in the world.
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