Kicking off a season

[yourlibrarian]

I've been trying to avoid any and all spoilers for SPN S6 so I have absolutely no idea how the new season will open. But looking back at S5 episodes Sunday did make me think of how season premieres figure into the rest of the season.

Comments

[dotfic]

So much yes on this -- I'd like to see them get back to eps like 2.01 which were strongly character driven. Not that S5 didn't have character driven moments or episodes, but I feel like the plot started to shout them down.

[yourlibrarian]

::nods::

[tartysuz]

We should get an idea of who these two people are after all they've gone through and why we should still care.

That's my hope, as well. I like S4 and S5 (in general - S5 was spotty) more than a lot of other fans, but since S6 is supposed to begin another arc, we really need to get a good idea of where the characters are at the moment.

Even without knowing what we now know, both should have been seriously wigged out to be in the position of interacting with one another again, not just because of their separation (vast on Dean's side!), but also because of the secrets both were keeping.

I see your point. However, Dean did not at that point seem entirely conscious of what had happened to him in Hell. And I always thought Sam looked at least a little bit wiggy when he hugged Dean.

Never explored is Sam's emotional reaction to what Dean has done, nor what has happened to him as someone who should be dead.

Would you count Mystery Spot?

[yourlibrarian]

I see your point. However, Dean did not at that point seem entirely conscious of what had happened to him in Hell. And I always thought Sam looked at least a little bit wiggy when he hugged Dean.The issue with Dean is debatable because I don't know that it's ever been made clear that Dean remembered everything from the first moments in which he came out of the ground. Although, even there I find it interesting that no one mentions at all the trauma of going through that! And after the first minutes, Sam and Dean just seem to readjust to one another as if he'd never been gone. I just found that to be completely off and Sam to be almost jokey through half his scenes. At least with Bobby and Dean they presumably had most of the day in a car together to start getting used to one another. Even without being as close, Bobby should have also had a bit of trouble adjusting to a Dean he last saw as abdominal ribbons in a coffin four months earlier. It wasn't like Sam being dead and back in 24 hours with an explanation quickly at hand

[erivar]

You are godsend. I am all cheer for the way you have things laid out. You pointed out my only frustration with the show as a whole. I am not one of those fans who believe that the show is slanted towards Dean's point of view because i am of the opinion that there is no Sam story without Dean and no Dean story without Sam so it is impossible to be slanted. But i believe that why some fans may think the show is slanted towards Dean's view is because the writers fail time and time again to delve into how everything that happens to Sam make him feel besides being angry and hitting the books the way they do with Dean

[yourlibrarian]

i believe that why some fans may think the show is slanted towards Dean's view is because the writers fail time and time again to delve into how everything that happens to Sam make him feel besides being angry and hitting the books the way they do with Dean.

That's a good way of putting it.

For example, the writers failed epically with delving deeper into Sam's feelings regarding the angels not living up to the ideals he had of them

Very true. For example, how may this have played into his other actions in S4. Could he have felt, after that experience, that he and Dean were truly on their own and had to empower themselves as much as possible given their odds? Also, if the angels seemed to have no moral center, what did that say about humans?

I actually think there was a reaction from Sam in Dark Side, although one has to look for it much more closely than Dean's since, as you pointed out earlier, his reactions tend to get spelled out clearly.

After all, their the ones who stated that the monsters and demons usually come

[wistie]

What confuses and frustrates me is the way the writers have everyone (except the fans) seeing Sam and Dean as stupid, foolhardy and conscious bringers on of the apocalypse. As if any "righteous" man in Dean's shoes (in hell) wouldn't eventually give in. As if Sam knew that killing Lilith was the last seal. And how could anyone call Dean righteous within this definition "Morally upright; without guilt or sin"? I don't think Dean is a righteous man, but a good, hard working man who is looking to solve problems way above his pay grade. But I digress...

I don't get why the writers portray Sam and Dean as assholes. Since we have been watching them since S1 we know they are not, but the writers keep telling us that they are. And they are trying very hard to convince us of it. I don't get it.

[yourlibrarian]

Interesting. On the one hand, I kind of see where you're coming from because there has been so little discussion about what each has done and the context and motivation that it is easy to portray them rather negatively. That's part of my problem with the writing is the overall lack of nuance and exploration.

On the other hand, I don't know as there's some effort to make the characters look bad. Rather, I think that each has been both right and wrong in different decisions, which is something I like about them. I rather like morally mixed characters even if, as in SPN, this is portrayed less as selfish than weak.

However, where I agree with you wholeheartedly is their frequent portrayal as being stupid and incompetent. Sadly, I attribute this to less than creative writers who can't seem to come up with ways where Sam and Dean might fail at something without being idiots about it.

[wistie]

"On the other hand, I don't know as there's some effort to make the characters look bad. Rather, I think that each has been both right and wrong in different decisions, which is something I like about them. I rather like morally mixed characters even if, as in SPN, this is portrayed less as selfish than weak." This issues I have aren't clear in my head so I'm having trouble explaining it. I also like characters that have depth and are not black or white. It seems like in the early seasons we were shown how some of the hard decisions that were made hurt Sam and Dean-- a perfect example was in the ep where Sam fell in love with the werewolf and had to kill her. We were clearly shown how much both men hated to do what must be done. In S5 I don't remember being shown that. It was more like Sam and Dean thought everyone else was ignorant and useless and everyone else thought that Sam and Dean were assholes. And Sam and Dean were even worse to each other. I hope this season they can become friends.

[yourlibrarian]

Ah, I see. Yes, I think this comes down to the general devaluation of other characters in the show as well as a general desensitization on the parts of Sam and Dean (which I think gets brought out pretty strongly in The End). The writing was very sloppy in this regard -- half the time they seem to have no concern for casualties of war and at other times it's supposed to be a moral dilemma.

[rokhal]

I don't know about the show trying to be emotionally deep. It's kinda bad at it, especially in the later seasons. Somebody needs to get the words "show, don't tell" tattooed on the back of their hands.

[yourlibrarian]

I thought the opening section of 6.01 was a very good example of show, don't tell but I agree that they're pretty inconsistent about this. And it's unfortunate that the fans often see so much more depth than the show delves into -- makes for good fanfic but some frustrating viewing.