Land of gross bigotry

[year_x]

All of this St Georges stuff really winds me up. I can't see nationalism, patriotism, or even the idea of nation state as anything other than an expression of humanity's base animalistic group behavior. Celebrating a framework which excludes those unlike us, a way of proclaiming conservative values and parochialism as positive attributes, of

Comments

[year_x]

A lot of that paragraph was hyperbole due to my pissed off mood today. This can all be seen two ways. Yes, if you follow the principal down then football is the same as patriotism in the elements I described above. But then the great thing about football, and patriotism is the ability to feel part of something. And you can't feel part of something unless there is another group you can depict as not part of your group.

But then, what I was annoyed about it the ancient feel of a lot of English patriotism - the feel that it has been shaped by all our ugly, hate filled national past, and as such is an imprint of that. 'Soccer' is recent and relatively modern. It is also a local thing, not part of an official framework like a country. Plus there is little exclusivity - I've never lived in Liverpool, but am a fan. Now you can see that dilution of it as good or bad, but it does make Football more flexible, and shallower, than patriotism

[year_x]

I think my idea of the shallowness of football comes from my own experience. But I'd say a lot of Premier League football clubs exhibit it a lot. Especially the London ones. And Man Utd :-P

[year_x]

The nation state thing is interesting. And I agree with what you say. I find our nation to hold conservatism dear. I'd go as far as saying it is nation defining conservatism.

Also my comment that a nation state is conservative is because of the slow rate at which a national character can change due to inertia.

[year_x]

I mean that for the majority of England's past it has been controlled by a minority of self-interested people who mostly did fairly horrific things. Not that that is unique for any state. Also 'accidents of history' can be natural things, like our temperate climate useful for long periods of stability to develop things/ideas/navys. Or our island status insulating us from the worst of Europe's convulsions.

Also, when a state is controlled by one, or a minority of people, the individual's life affects the state. So things (accidents of history) like personality disorders, relationship breakdown, physical ailments affect a nation more than one rules by some sort of ruling organisation (senate, parliament etc)

[guyinahat]

I think national identity can be a positive element in bringing people together as a social entity. It can also be hijacked by pricks though (have you seen 'This is England'?), which is why I think it's overall a good thing to reinforce the positive applications. Having the focus on inclusion rather than exclusion is essential.

I like the idea of believing in a social entity that transcends political parties and sub-cultures. It would be much better if it worked on a wider (gobal) scale, but I don't think humanity is up for that yet.

[year_x]

Yeah, as I said to Kate above, there are clearly two sides to this. And I have always been proud of being British. Exactly why I can never figure out. And there are a lot of positives to this idea of patriotism. I think it was the ancient nature of the St Georges celebrations, and the whole awful nature of a lot of English history and culture that's celebrated as Chris says, before the modern state was created. And especially before we arrived at the culture we enjoy today