Brain hurting to think anymore...

[vejiicakes]

I do my best to keep an open mind, whilst maintaining a balance between what logic tells me as well as what an examination of my feelings tell me on any given issue. When given two opposing viewpoints where one or the other isn't complete bullcrap, even if both sets of arguments make sense to me I can usually pretty easily find myself on one side

Comments

[shuraiya]

Maybe it's a sense of feeling alienated from the cause? I saw a lot of people on ontd_political react poorly to a movie star-endorsed ad against Prop 8 for the fact that they were all straight and were supporting the fight against discrimination because of their gay friends, rather than for it being a flat out infringement of basic human rights. Does that make sense? @_@

Aaanyway, I dunno. I mean, I understand it from the point of view that people want to show they support human rights and equality even when the opposition has said that it AFFECTS THEM SO MUCH but at the same time, it really reminds me of my whole pet peeve with people who feel the need to advertise/announce their sexuality. I feel like it's a personal thing, if not something that just ... should not matter. Like, you should be able to say you have a boy or girlfriend without it being a big deal, you know?

[vejiicakes]

Exactly, and I know that feeling exists, I've fucking felt it, and I don't use it for that reason (when by that same token I certainly make no effort to conceal it either).

It's like.. this is alienation versus diversity, and both seem completely valid viewpoints to me. This does not happen to me often O_O

[haveyoubeen]

Yeah, exactly.

It's hard, really, to figure out just how to feel about all this. @__@

[shuraiya]

L-lol oh gosh, oops! Sorry, I was logged into an RP account just now and didn't notice. XDDDD;;

[terrayndian]

And this is where I get annoyed with the whole situation in which people seem to get stuck on the words and not what is being said. Whenever people say that they're straight and still supporting gay rights, I take it to mean what you've already said - it's a show of external support. More often than not, it's simply an innocent statement that is meant to be an identifier of the person's point of view.

Bleh, I suppose I mostly get hung up on this because I say things where the words can mean one thing, but the intent was entirely different. My sister was particularly picky about it, pointing it out at every turn when it was obvious I meant something else. Sometimes, words are just words... until someone points it out and makes a big deal about it.

[vejiicakes]

YES. And yet, no, at the same time. I mean, I've heard it used in a way that I would consider supportive and sensitive. I've also heard it used in a way that I would consider condescending and sort of desperately ("..and I'd like to repeat that I AM NOT GAY, but...") and it really is in the manner (or frequency, for that matter) that it's said. And unfortunately that's a nuance you just can't parse that from a freaking sign at a protest or blog meme D:

[terrayndian]

And I can completely understand that, but then you're getting back to the meaning of those words. When it's something you hear as condescending or deceitful, then the words ultimately don't matter. Unfortunately, that ability to 'hear intent' is severely limited in the world of blogging, but little can be done about that. =P

[vejiicakes]

Well, there is the fact where that bit I paraphrased was actually from an informal article I'd seen written up on the internet in the OLLLLD fandom days. Something to do with the DBZ fandom and that song "I'm Blue" by Eiffel 65, if you can believe it.. basically it was some blogger reacting to his homophobic roomies thinking the lyrics were, "I'm in need of a guy," leading to his eventual write up that, "it's not that big of a deal," and, "I want to start this post by saying that I'm NOT gay," and, "In concluding, I want to repeat the fact that I AM NOT GAY, but..") And his heart was obviously in the right place, or at least potentially headed toward the right place, but even with me being like 15 years old and not nearly as sensitive to this kinda shit, I still got this niggling sense of, "Wow, he's being awfully defensive about that being gay thing, if he doesn't think it's a big deal."

Er, the point being that I WANT to be mindful of people's feelings, because I know that just because I don't mean to hurt someone doesn't mean

[pirateseneschal]

My feelings on the subject are pretty complicated, since one of my IRL friends kind of got bitched at in that thread because she does use that qualifier when asked why she's supportive of gays, and I myself tend to do the same thing because I think it's an overarching issue that all straight people should support. I get that the whole separation from gay and straight people can bug the living fuck out of someone, but if they're willing to alienate support because it's done in a way that can be construed as condescending, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

It matters to me when people do things for altruistic reasons rather than wait for the issue that affects them personally.

I'm waiting for the day when I don't have a "Wow, that's neat!" reaction to someone telling me they're gay. I mean, that'll be real equality when I can just go "Yes, okay, moving on..."

[vejiicakes]

THIS. I.. hell, I'm agreeing with everyone in this comment thread so far. And then disagreeing too. This isn't helping me come to a decision at all. But obviously you know where I'm coming from, if your feelings are complicated on the matter too.

For what it's worth, I don't think they're actually trying to alienate support or demanding that supporters do so another way, merely asking that they examine how that might make those who actually identify as gay feel. Though people like your friend are only responding and asking that said community understand the way they feel and their intentions. And on the other hand, since the gay community are the party currently being wronged by the government and 52% of their fellow Californians, I feel like theirs are the feelings most in need of respect now. ..And THEN I just feel like, "Okay, now that's condescending and very much lacking in the spirit of real equality," but then OH GOD DAMN IT IT'S STARTED ALL OVER AGAIN >_< [/flop]

[raane]

I haven't read the debate because I'm so buried under my work, but I wonder if it's anything like the men-who-support-feminism who call themselves feminist allies instead of just plain feminists because they don't want to make it all about men again. Show support without being presumptuous.

But of course I haven't looked into the arguments, so I could be way off.

[vejiicakes]

Mostly the idea is that the spirit of the "I'm straight and support gay rights" meme lies in demonstrating the far-reaching consequences of denying one minority group their civil rights, or in showing the diversity of the support, and that sort of thing.

Although someone in the thread actually did mention how it was also a comment made in effort not to appear as though they were trying to infiltrate a community to which they didn't really belong, or otherwise presume to identify with a minority whose experience they really had no way of honestly knowing. Which I hadn't really thought of before, but I liked the sensitivity of, which really borked with my internal argument even MORE.

[vejiicakes]

The "and" vs "but" bit could have been my initial reaction (and I wish it were, because that would make things so much simpler on this end), except that the discussion that resulted from that post led me to believe that there was some discomfort with prefacing a supportive statement for gay rights with any inclusion of identifying one's sexual orientation. Because it shouldn't matter. And I agree that it shouldn't matter, but then I also think that it's still important. ..God I think I'm just talking out of my ass now. Can I just chalk it up to being 1:40 am and sleep deprived? Yeah, I'm going to do that and then come back to this tomorrow -_-