Curious

[jilleen_dennis]

I've wanted to turn my life toward healthier living, and have taken a great interest in a raw or vegan diet/lifestyle. I'm curious to see how many of you exclude every animal product from your lives, and how many exclude only the ones that cause animal suffering

Comments

[surlynymph]

All animal products cause suffering :-(

[jilleen_dennis]

I'm just saying, there are actual organizations (such as Vegan Outreach) suggest that it is impossible to not use any animal products, especially considering the fact that animal products can be used in the production of certain items, though they aren't always present in the final form. A lot of the time animal products used in non-food items aren't even identified.

I've also read that some vegans consider the use of insect products to be okay.

So, though I understand where you're coming from, and that we really don't know what happens in the production of any product, especially those that contain some sort of animal by-product, your response isn't exactly turning anyone vegan here, nor is it giving any sort of justification to the lifestyle and belief of a vegan person.

[liadlaith]

Of course it's impossible to avoid all animal products, but vegans don't try to do the impossible (see: Vegan Societies that have websites, because spreading the message and information has a greater benefit than avoiding the animal products in computers).

Vegans do what's possible and practical to avoid animal products, which includes excluding carmine and honey. Why should insects have to suffer just so that we can have red lips and sweetness?

[jilleen_dennis]

At the same time, how do you know they suffer? For all we know bee's could feel no pain at all.

It's interesting that you word it that way. You assume that the insect is suffering the same way meat eaters assume they were put at the top of the food chain for a reason.

There's a lot of harm in assumption, and I'm asking for practical answers. It just seems like a lot of the "vegan" people I meet are very much holier than thou type of people. Almost like people who believe in god and are Christian. There's a lot of harm in believing that your belief is the only correct one.

[liadlaith]

A vegan excludes, as far as is possible and practical, all animal products, regardless of how they were gathered. Vegan generally come from the point of view that animals don't exist to serve humans, and that they have a right to keep whatever they make, even if humans think of it as "going to waste".

I would even go so far as to say that "vegans" who only exclude animal products that "lead to animal suffering" (you would be surprised how few animal products exclude animal suffering) are not vegan, perhaps actually vegetarian.

[jilleen_dennis]

So do vegans also only eat organic food? Does anyone consider how many animals are killed when tractors plow and fertilize the fields that our vegetables grow in, especially considering how much crop land makes up for the percentage of the Earth's soil?

Where is the line drawn between practical and impractical when it comes to veganism?

[ochibawolf]

No, vegans do not only eat organic food(although I eat mostly organic). With the tractor thing you are talking about, I'd say it would be like hitting a skunk while driving. You don't want it to happen, but it does.

[jilleen_dennis]

So vegans generally make no effort at all against the fertilization of crops, yet won't eat honey to save their soul?

[jilleen_dennis]

Well, if I was making a coat out of my mother's toe nails, I'd say I had some issues. However, sheering wool from a sheep and using the hooves of the animal are two different things. People do use hair from other people for wigs, extensions..etc.. so your examples aren't exactly striking home with me.

And how many animal products are used in medicines and the products we come in contact with when we have to undergo surgery..etc.. I mean, I get that a vegan person excludes what animal products they can do without from their lives, but it just seems like people don't fully think about how much of our civilization and survival is built on the building blocks of animals.

[surlynymph]

The wool industry is a bad example to use if you are trying to convice us that this sort of thing is ethical. Not only are the sheep bread to produce way more wool then they would normally wear, but in places like Australia, many of them are treated just about as brutally as factory farmed cattle. Not to mention the shearing of the wool can be very painful -- when they are completely shaved they are subject to the elements that they are not biologically adapted to handle.

Taken from animalliberation.org:

Lambs suffer several painful mutilations. Their tails are cut off, most of them are mulesed, and males are castrated. In the mules operation, slices of skin are cut off the buttocks without any pain killers to produce a large scar. The scar is less attractive to blowflies. All of these mutilations are very painful.

[jilleen_dennis]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, simply trying to understand veganism, which I already outlined in my original post.

I used to have sheep when I was younger. I grew up on a farm that was basically a pet farm. We had horses, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, hogs, dogs, cats... all of which were pets.

I understand that in a mass production factory farm setting, the proper precautions are not taken. I get that. I'm saying, if I made a wool hat out of the wool from shearing our pet sheep, that would lead me to being unqualified for being vegan? That is the type of philosophy I don't agree with, and the point I'm getting at.

"Sheep grow wool continuously. If they are not sheared at least once per year they can become very uncomfortable and stressed, especially when it is hot and humid. The wool will become matted and more difficult to shear if it is not removed in a timely basis."Removing the tails of lambs and shearing sheep is something done to keep the animal healthy, and if it is done properly with no harm to the

[exairetemechane]

some vegans only use honey that is organic certified or "naturally gathered" as opposed to the brands that are mass produced

These people aren't vegan then. They're vegetarians.

An animal product is an animal product, and vegans don't use animal products.

[jilleen_dennis]

..as long as they can avoid it?

[exairetemechane]

Vegans seek to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. [paraphrased from Vegan Society website]

I think that's what you're asking?

[ohhpishposh]

well, no, "...as long as they can avoid it" isn't meant in the sense that you're taking it I think. It doesn't give a vegan the right to, say, buy honey instead of a vegan sugar substitute, if the grocery store is all out of the vegan options. Or eat a non-vegan meal because you're a guest in someone else's house, or buy a wool sweater that you like instead of a piece of clothing made from synthetic material.

"...as long as they can avoid it" actually applies to a small number of categories and situations. It kind of refers to the idea that everyone makes honest mistakes sometimes (sometimes ingredient lists are read wrong, things are mislabeled as vegan, etc.), and it sucks, but it's OKAY; and sometimes vegans own possessions from before they went vegan that may have been animal-derived, and it would pose financial problems to replace the item instead of using it now; or sometimes vegans have tried ALL other options, but need to resort to using a medication derived from animal ingredients. No animal ingredients = vegan, unless it

[ochibawolf]

Sheep are harmed for their wool. http://www.savethesheep.com/

[surlynymph]

you read my mind!

[exairetemechane]

Ding ding ding.

[laughing_anima]

Yeah, that was my first thought on reading this post ... recalling the very horrid reasons I gave away all my wool items soon after being vegan. Honey, wool, and silk =\= guilt-free, peaceful products