The fight on the bridge - and why it matters
I've been meaning to post this for a while and just before (hopefully) we all go nuts over Drabblefest II, I thought I'd pop it out there for discussion...
I've listened to Foz and Dom's explanation on the DVD extras of why Robin and Little John don't meet the traditional way but I think they got it wrong and here's why...
The fight on the bridge - and why it matters
Ask most people about Little John and after the general description ("tall", "strong", "staff" and probably "beard") the next thing to come up would usually be the way he first meets Robin Hood.
The traditional version most people know (e.g. the Child Ballad) says that Robin meets a giant of a man as he's crossing a bridge. Robin demands the other man let him pass; the other man tells him he should back down. Robin threatens to shoot him; the man says Robin is a coward to do so since he only has a staff. Robin gets a staff, they fight and though it's close, the stranger wins and topples Robin into the water. Robin's men show up and overpower the stranger thinking he's attacked Robin but Robin sets him free and he joins Robin's gang, becoming Robin's second-in-command. When they find out his name is John Little, Will (Stutley) decides it would be much funnier to call him Little John and they have a mock christening.
In Howard Pyle's The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood (my intro to the legend) when Robin asks John to join him, John says "Only if you can out-shoot me." They have an archery competition where John shows himself to be an excellent bowman, hitting the bulls-eye. Robin goes one better and splits John's arrow and John agrees to join his gang.
After their meeting, John then features prominently throughout most of the other tales of Robin Hood , and even has his own stories where Robin only features very briefly.
So far, so merry.
With the advent of movies though, there was subtle shift. Robin is the hero and heroes don't lose (particularly ones being shown to an American audience). So the fight becomes a little less clear cut and Robin even starts winning it. John is still big and strong but somehow now he's also a bit slow and has to be bested by and even made to a look a little foolish by Robin, and there seems no other reason to do that other than to make Robin look better by comparison. John also gradually becomes older and hairier in contrast to Robin's clean-cut youth and good looks.
Some recent examples:
Robin of Sherwood (clip available here on YouTube): John is indeed big and hairy but at least about the same age as Robin (actors are 3 years apart). The meeting remains fairly true to the original with one distinction - in this telling John isn't quite himself at this point - he's been possessed (just go with it) and is actually trying to kill Robin. John wins on the bridge but then hops into the water after Robin to finish the job. Robin runs into the bushes and sneakily thwacks John in the face with the end of his staff, knocking him out, so it is Robin that wins the fight overall. Robin knocking John out and cleaning off the markings on his chest frees him from his possession and he's very grateful.
In Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (Script here - start from #43) John (big, hairy and notionally older though Costner!Robin is no spring chicken) wins their first fight (a fist fight) and in the second on the bridge knocks Robin into the water - but Robin then tips him into the water and since John can't swim he yields.
In our Robin Hood, there not even a hint of running water. John is now much older than Robin (though of course I don't mind that in itself because, y'know, Gordon) and gets more and more hairy and dishevelled (and non-verbal) throughout the show (which I mind like hell). He and his gang ambush Robin, Much and Allan, tie them up and rob them. Will is hiding, frees them and they return the favour. John gets loose and goes for Robin who neatly side steps him, grabs his arm and gets him in an arm lock so he can be tied up properly (Robin grinning smugly all the while). Robin has a quick preach, some more of John's men arrive and then John knocks Robin out and takes him to Locksley for the reward money. Only the handy coincidence that Alice Little is next for the state-funded tonguectomy saves Robin (and probably John as well - we all know Vaizey would have said "Thanks - kill him too").
Let's leave aside for a moment the ditching of the christening (Little John is not called such till the very end of 1x05 'Turk Flu') - it would have been nice but I don't mind that. (I just wrote it myself!).
Fair enough the bridge scene has been done to death and wouldn't fit with the story of the episode but it's not just about the location; iconic though that may be, it's not what's important about the scene. There are several important things that changing the whole dynamic of their first meeting does to the overall picture.
#1 - Firstly, John beating Robin shows that Robin is not invincible. He's not superman, he's not the best at absolutely everything. Our Robin is - he may have other character flaws but he's the best fighter, archer, leader etc. and he can do backflips.
#2 - It also shows that Robin can gracefully accept being fairly beaten. This emphasises his nobility of character; it gives him humility and it's something our Robin was sorely lacking. He remains the cocky, arrogant young man who can do anything he likes because he's a) the best, b) the smartest (Djaq's not here yet and even when she is, Robin knows he knows better than her), and c) a noble. If Robin is portrayed as a disgraced nobleman, then getting beaten and taking it well should break down some of the divisions between him and the peasants who make up his gang - the show deliberately chose to keep him separate (presumably for later plots involving Robin being all high and mighty about the bigger picture).
#3 - Robin and John accept each other pretty much as equals, indeed in one ballad Robin offers to let John take over as leader but John declines. Our Robin just sort of takes over and then John isn't even really acknowledged as Robin's right hand man. You get the impression Robin asks John's opinion occasionally and there are hints (1x08 - Much's "Little John said!") the others consider him as the person to take over when Robin's not there (or not himself) but it's never really made explicit. If John is being made older to give him a wise, fatherly aspect he should at least be the canny old Sergeant tempering Robin's heroic young Captain - and he's not.
#4 - Finally and most importantly, there is a definite bond of friendship formed almost straight away between the two men. Little John and Robin Hood are friends - best friends in fact. The legend of Robin Hood is a bromance - hell, Marian doesn't even show up until hundreds of years later! In Pyle's telling of the original ballad involving Guy of Gisborne, John is so distraught when he thinks Guy has killed Robin that he begs "Guy" (actually Robin in disguise) to kill him too. John is also traditionally the only one present at Robin's death and he's all set to tear down Kirklees Abbey, stone by stone, in retaliation.
Our John seems to tolerate Robin but you never really get the impression he actually likes him all that much until a lot later. (I think 2x04 is maybe the first time we see him genuinely concerned for Robin's well being when Robin takes the poison). Our John is fighting for Robin's cause and the people (primarily his own family to begin with) but not for Robin himself. It only really becomes personal in 3x13 as they say goodbye (although, to be fair, Robin does have a lip wibble when he finds John's tags on the road in 1x11 but we don't really get the same from John). And this is critical (IMO) and my biggest gripe because, in making John so gruff and unfriendly, it makes John himself a lot less likeable. He doesn't like anybody, why should we like him?
Bad enough he's surrounded by younger, prettier people but he's not even allowed to be the warm, cuddly father figure and he's given no romantic scenes at all (no, I mean it - one peck on the cheek from Alice and two comedic arse-pinches from Eleanor just don't count) so we're given precious little to admire about him other than he's "one of the good guys". His character does soften a bit in S3 but way, waaay too late.
Now I know Much occupies (notionally) the position of Robin's BFF in this telling but that's still no reason Robin and John can't be shown to come to like and respect each other. Instead John goes from Robin's best mate, with a cracking sense of humour and just as much smarts and skill as the man himself to the grumpy old bugger in the back with one stubborn fangirl.
And yes, I'm outrageously biased (because I liked both Little John and Gordon Kennedy before the show was even a twinkle in Foz and Dom's eyes), but I genuinely believe the show (which, don't get me wrong, I love to teeny, tiny pieces), Little John and Robin were all slightly the poorer for it.
Your turn - and please, I absolutely welcome contrary opinions.
I've listened to Foz and Dom's explanation on the DVD extras of why Robin and Little John don't meet the traditional way but I think they got it wrong and here's why...
The fight on the bridge - and why it matters
Ask most people about Little John and after the general description ("tall", "strong", "staff" and probably "beard") the next thing to come up would usually be the way he first meets Robin Hood.
The traditional version most people know (e.g. the Child Ballad) says that Robin meets a giant of a man as he's crossing a bridge. Robin demands the other man let him pass; the other man tells him he should back down. Robin threatens to shoot him; the man says Robin is a coward to do so since he only has a staff. Robin gets a staff, they fight and though it's close, the stranger wins and topples Robin into the water. Robin's men show up and overpower the stranger thinking he's attacked Robin but Robin sets him free and he joins Robin's gang, becoming Robin's second-in-command. When they find out his name is John Little, Will (Stutley) decides it would be much funnier to call him Little John and they have a mock christening.
In Howard Pyle's The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood (my intro to the legend) when Robin asks John to join him, John says "Only if you can out-shoot me." They have an archery competition where John shows himself to be an excellent bowman, hitting the bulls-eye. Robin goes one better and splits John's arrow and John agrees to join his gang.
After their meeting, John then features prominently throughout most of the other tales of Robin Hood , and even has his own stories where Robin only features very briefly.
So far, so merry.
With the advent of movies though, there was subtle shift. Robin is the hero and heroes don't lose (particularly ones being shown to an American audience). So the fight becomes a little less clear cut and Robin even starts winning it. John is still big and strong but somehow now he's also a bit slow and has to be bested by and even made to a look a little foolish by Robin, and there seems no other reason to do that other than to make Robin look better by comparison. John also gradually becomes older and hairier in contrast to Robin's clean-cut youth and good looks.
Some recent examples:
Robin of Sherwood (clip available here on YouTube): John is indeed big and hairy but at least about the same age as Robin (actors are 3 years apart). The meeting remains fairly true to the original with one distinction - in this telling John isn't quite himself at this point - he's been possessed (just go with it) and is actually trying to kill Robin. John wins on the bridge but then hops into the water after Robin to finish the job. Robin runs into the bushes and sneakily thwacks John in the face with the end of his staff, knocking him out, so it is Robin that wins the fight overall. Robin knocking John out and cleaning off the markings on his chest frees him from his possession and he's very grateful.
In Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (Script here - start from #43) John (big, hairy and notionally older though Costner!Robin is no spring chicken) wins their first fight (a fist fight) and in the second on the bridge knocks Robin into the water - but Robin then tips him into the water and since John can't swim he yields.
In our Robin Hood, there not even a hint of running water. John is now much older than Robin (though of course I don't mind that in itself because, y'know, Gordon) and gets more and more hairy and dishevelled (and non-verbal) throughout the show (which I mind like hell). He and his gang ambush Robin, Much and Allan, tie them up and rob them. Will is hiding, frees them and they return the favour. John gets loose and goes for Robin who neatly side steps him, grabs his arm and gets him in an arm lock so he can be tied up properly (Robin grinning smugly all the while). Robin has a quick preach, some more of John's men arrive and then John knocks Robin out and takes him to Locksley for the reward money. Only the handy coincidence that Alice Little is next for the state-funded tonguectomy saves Robin (and probably John as well - we all know Vaizey would have said "Thanks - kill him too").
Let's leave aside for a moment the ditching of the christening (Little John is not called such till the very end of 1x05 'Turk Flu') - it would have been nice but I don't mind that. (I just wrote it myself!).
Fair enough the bridge scene has been done to death and wouldn't fit with the story of the episode but it's not just about the location; iconic though that may be, it's not what's important about the scene. There are several important things that changing the whole dynamic of their first meeting does to the overall picture.
#1 - Firstly, John beating Robin shows that Robin is not invincible. He's not superman, he's not the best at absolutely everything. Our Robin is - he may have other character flaws but he's the best fighter, archer, leader etc. and he can do backflips.
#2 - It also shows that Robin can gracefully accept being fairly beaten. This emphasises his nobility of character; it gives him humility and it's something our Robin was sorely lacking. He remains the cocky, arrogant young man who can do anything he likes because he's a) the best, b) the smartest (Djaq's not here yet and even when she is, Robin knows he knows better than her), and c) a noble. If Robin is portrayed as a disgraced nobleman, then getting beaten and taking it well should break down some of the divisions between him and the peasants who make up his gang - the show deliberately chose to keep him separate (presumably for later plots involving Robin being all high and mighty about the bigger picture).
#3 - Robin and John accept each other pretty much as equals, indeed in one ballad Robin offers to let John take over as leader but John declines. Our Robin just sort of takes over and then John isn't even really acknowledged as Robin's right hand man. You get the impression Robin asks John's opinion occasionally and there are hints (1x08 - Much's "Little John said!") the others consider him as the person to take over when Robin's not there (or not himself) but it's never really made explicit. If John is being made older to give him a wise, fatherly aspect he should at least be the canny old Sergeant tempering Robin's heroic young Captain - and he's not.
#4 - Finally and most importantly, there is a definite bond of friendship formed almost straight away between the two men. Little John and Robin Hood are friends - best friends in fact. The legend of Robin Hood is a bromance - hell, Marian doesn't even show up until hundreds of years later! In Pyle's telling of the original ballad involving Guy of Gisborne, John is so distraught when he thinks Guy has killed Robin that he begs "Guy" (actually Robin in disguise) to kill him too. John is also traditionally the only one present at Robin's death and he's all set to tear down Kirklees Abbey, stone by stone, in retaliation.
Our John seems to tolerate Robin but you never really get the impression he actually likes him all that much until a lot later. (I think 2x04 is maybe the first time we see him genuinely concerned for Robin's well being when Robin takes the poison). Our John is fighting for Robin's cause and the people (primarily his own family to begin with) but not for Robin himself. It only really becomes personal in 3x13 as they say goodbye (although, to be fair, Robin does have a lip wibble when he finds John's tags on the road in 1x11 but we don't really get the same from John). And this is critical (IMO) and my biggest gripe because, in making John so gruff and unfriendly, it makes John himself a lot less likeable. He doesn't like anybody, why should we like him?
Bad enough he's surrounded by younger, prettier people but he's not even allowed to be the warm, cuddly father figure and he's given no romantic scenes at all (no, I mean it - one peck on the cheek from Alice and two comedic arse-pinches from Eleanor just don't count) so we're given precious little to admire about him other than he's "one of the good guys". His character does soften a bit in S3 but way, waaay too late.
Now I know Much occupies (notionally) the position of Robin's BFF in this telling but that's still no reason Robin and John can't be shown to come to like and respect each other. Instead John goes from Robin's best mate, with a cracking sense of humour and just as much smarts and skill as the man himself to the grumpy old bugger in the back with one stubborn fangirl.
And yes, I'm outrageously biased (because I liked both Little John and Gordon Kennedy before the show was even a twinkle in Foz and Dom's eyes), but I genuinely believe the show (which, don't get me wrong, I love to teeny, tiny pieces), Little John and Robin were all slightly the poorer for it.
Your turn - and please, I absolutely welcome contrary opinions.