If we can't torture then what can we do?

[tongodeon]

I recently addressed this question on a closed email list:

is it completely impermissible to exert any kind of pressure at all to get information about who is co-conspirators are? No pressure all, just ask him very nicely, pretty please, and that's it? If some degree of pressure is permmissible, no matter how small, then like the old joke, "We've

Comments

[chemicalpilate]

We should treat terrorists the same way that we treated Timothy McVeigh: legally interrogate, try, convict, and punish. Openly, in a full and fair court, where no reasonable person can doubt the prisoner's guilt.

Well put.

[haineux]

Incidentally, the existing courtroom scenario has rules and etiquette for dealing with secret information

[tongodeon]

Thanks, George. Looks like the next President will have to spend all of their time undoing your crap.

I'm not entirely sure that the next president of either party will be eager to diminish the power of their office.

My hope is that either the Democrats take the Senate and the House and start dismantling this overly-powerful Presidency, or the Democrats take the White House and the Republicans miraculously re-discover and start pushing state's rights and limited responsible government like they were when Clinton was in power.

[sploof]

Two things in particular strike me about this argument.

One, it's really dismissive of skilled interrogators. What do these people think police interrogators do? Do they think everyone who confesses to a crime or gives up an accomplice did so to stop the police from kicking the shit out of them?

Two, it misses the point. Even if torture was effective, (which it's not) it would still be an obscenity. The fact that something is effective, convenient, or emotionally satisfying doesn't make it right. The difference between "good guys" and "bad guys" is that "good guys" will do the right thing even if it's hard, or risky, or costs lives.

[tongodeon]

The difference between "good guys" and "bad guys" is that "good guys" will do the right thing even if it's hard, or risky, or costs lives.

This morning on NPR someone said that we can't extend habeas rights to prisoners because it would be "too expensive". It would cost too much money to give them lawyers, access to judges, and clear the secret evidence.

My response: Freedom isn't free.

[mskala]

Beer and speech...

[haineux]

"it costs a dollah fifty"

The person who said this needs some serious freaking enlightenment. Now, if I were not against torture, I'd suggest they be made to undergo the same treatment until they change their minds.

Seriously, WHY is the USA now the movie Brazil?

Seriously. What? The? Fuck?

Why assume it is still operable

[drieuxster]

your bold statement that the Bill Of Rights does not need an exit strategy fails to take into account the traditional solution of Deification and then Denial!!!

The two hot bills moving through congress - the National Torture Bill and the save our white christian america bill - make it clear that most of the original ten ammendments issued as the bill of rights will not be needed beyond symbolic imaging for patriotic gatherings.

So what will it really take for america to step away from the abyss?

That is the Real Question here.