Bring out your dead

[thespikeofit]

So one of the discussions I've been following around fandom this week seems to centre around how many people have been killed by the recent events in season 8. The views range from only as many as we've seen explicitly dead bodies within the comic (ie very few)  right through to millions.I actually think the question is doomed to never be resolved

Comments

[rahirah]

I can buy that Buffy et al. are inured to the idea of large-scaqle death; they'd kind of have to be by this point. And Buffy's always done what she's done more out of duty than compassion. (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.) What bothers me is that the writers don't seem to think that non-slayer deaths are important, and don't seem to think that the audience should find them important, either.

[thespikeofit]

Absolutely, I don't find this a problem with the characters, I fault the writer for not bothering about the bigger picture. On the show it mostly worked because they never had the resources to show lots of death and destruction.

[shapinglight]

I think the constant genre-switching in BtVS can at times lead to a sort of moral whiplash, as it were. While watching, we don't think Willow is callous for not being horrified at Harmony being a vampire because the revelation is used for comedy. We clearly aren't meant to think about how upset Harmony's family must have been that their daughter died etc.

However, I do think that Joss has raised the stakes (heh! pun) too much in the comic, with this world ending.

[thespikeofit]

Yep, I wasn't bothered at all by the Willow/Harmony scene at all when I watched it, it's just something I realised much later on. Within the show I can accept that they drew a veil over the real world ramifications of such an event but I think that's harder to do when they're busy showing us global destruction.

[shapinglight]

Well, all you can really say is that even Joss and Allie have admitted they were possibly wrong to 'go global.'

No wonder the comic just doesn't seem like BtVS to many people.

[thespikeofit]

I think they both just thought of the notion that in a comic they could do anything and not be bothered by budget. The problem is they don't seem to have considered it any further than that. They've pulled in all these new slayers but none of them evidently had friends who mattered and would join the cause, it's only Buffy whose allowed to keep her support system and consider the balance between slayerdom and normality (though admitedly she seems to have given up the battle on that one).

At the end of season 8 it'll be interesting to discuss what the worst mis-steps of the comics have been but I think this one will be a front-runner.

[2maggie2]

It's true that the Scoobies have always been a bit blase about the red shirts. The problem I have with the indifference in season 8 is not that Buffy isn't fussed about deaths she failed to prevent. It's that she's not fussed about deaths she *caused*. No frakking, no apocalypse. To me that makes a big difference.

[angearia]

I think it's because we're caught up on the rollercoaster action. If Angel had been revealed mid-season, we'd have maybe had time to explore the fallout like say have a quiet moment where Buffy's consumed with guilt because Teresa is dead at Angel's hands.

It's that problem we've been having about the execution of the emotional resonance of the story. Loss of focus, lagging plot, then important things that slip between the cracks because of time wasted.

[thespikeofit]

Well I think the pacing may play a role in how quickly the story dealt with the reveal that Angel was Twilight so they've skipped any internal debate as to what Angel is culpable for. I fear we're just meant to accept that it would have been worse if Angel hadn't done what he did and let everything go which doesn't really work for me.

I think the issue with events post reveal is a bigger issue and more related to Joss as a storyteller - he's interested in his characters but doesn't really want to deal in the bigger picture of how his characters feel about the people at a remove from them. This is absolutely not a dig at the characters, I don't for a minute see this as evidence that any of them are supposed to be viewed as shallow or callous.

[thespikeofit]

I agree that for Buffy to have had a role in causing the events is a major problem. I just fear that Joss is going to just ignore that element and will ignore the notion of deaths outside the slayer army, Buffy's immediate circle and possibly some of the military killed during this final throw-down in Sunnydale.So not only will they hand wave as to Buffy's culpability they'll fail to acknowledge the wider logical results of the story they've told.

I accept I'm being premature and this whole issue may be fully explored (in 40 if anywhere) I'm just not optimistic about that.

[elisi]

Hmm. I think there is a difference between not having prevented a death, and having contributed

[thespikeofit]

Agree that not preventing and actively contributing are for the most part two separate things though there can be a gray area in between the two at times. I also don't really expect Buffy to blame herself for the death of the people in Graduation Day, what strikes me after the fact as odder is that she and the others aren't even seemingly sad about it. I can't imagine something like that happening and me not being interested in knowing who died. (In contrast see the scene when Willow discovers the dead students after vampires attack the highschool and we see how shaken she is by that.)Again, I don't actually see this as a failing of the characters, I see this as Joss indicating that that isn't the storyline he wants to focus on

[elisi]

Again, I don't actually see this as a failing of the characters, I see this as Joss indicating that that isn't the storyline he wants to focus on.
*nods* I never minded, to be honest. I don't even mind about Xander, because I can so clearly see the writer's hand. It bothers me, however, that apparently the writer doesn't think Buffy should feel guilty about destroying the world, except the part where she shared her power... Grrr.

[thespikeofit]

I agree, though on one level it is interesting to inspect the things I find myself holding the characters responsible for and the things I excuse them and blame on the writer.

My fear is that Joss hasn't even thought about the deaths caused by the Angel/Buffy sexathon so won't even think of what blame Buffy should take for it. (Again, fingers crossed I'll be wrong and Joss will address this all.)