I have said similar things about "female space" because fandom is the first community I have ever been in where I did not feel the need to actively masquerade as "one of the boys". And the idea that the flip side of that can feel exclusionary to someone I quite like is, you know, sad. And I'm sure you know that most people mean it as, and want it to be, "safe space" rather than "exclusionary space" but I'll bet that doesn't help the emotional reaction.
*realizes she said nothing productive*
*obediently offers a hug*
Good luck with the "I got a new job" conversation. That one is a "that sucks but congratulations too!" thing, isn't it?
And I'm sure you know that most people mean it as, and want it to be, "safe space" rather than "exclusionary space" but I'll bet that doesn't help the emotional reaction.
Yes, I totally get that. And no, it doesn't really help :P
It's mostly a problem of what people call things, and what their expectations and concrete actions (as opposed to political or theoretical posturing) are in relation to those labels. Which is, you know, why telepathy is so much better than the language system we've got (haha).
*words and hugs always appreciated, thank you*
I've had problems communicating with my boss since my very first day here, two years ago. This is going to be the best conversation EVER.
There really has to be a way to talk about/acknowledge/even celebrate the fact that fandom is rare in the fact that it is not a male-dominated space (like much of the rest of the world) without being totalizing.
Because I hear you, dude. But also, how do we talk about the "facts" - that there are a disproportionate amount of women in this community and that that--obviously, I think--affects the kind of discourse that happens here?
P.S. Another thing that I think is missing in a lot of that kind of meta is the PLURALITY of female experience. Gotta balance that with the communal experience of sexism, as WELL as the any number of other -isms affecting folks' lives/fandom experiences. Ya know?
There really has to be a way to talk about/acknowledge/even celebrate the fact that fandom is rare in the fact that it is not a male-dominated space (like much of the rest of the world) without being totalizing.
Yes. Exactly. Because wow, it is a thing that should be talked about and celebrated. Seriously.
But also, how do we talk about the "facts" - that there are a disproportionate amount of women in this community and that that--obviously, I think--affects the kind of discourse that happens here?
Okay, so, I'm one of those annoying people who thinks all gender is social--none of it is inherent beyond hormones influencing brain function--so to me, it's not obvious that fan discourse is naturally influenced by the disproportionate f:m ratio (of course, it's influenced as much as people think it should be, and in that people perform their gender with behaviours learned from childhood, blahdeblah I haven't got a lot of theory words).
P.S. Another thing that I think is missing in a lot of that kind of meta is the PLURALITY of female
( ... )
Hey, no problem. I think it's good that you're voicing your "minority" EXISTENCE.
And yeah, I too think that gender is social (and the social is imbricated or constructed in relation to physical things like bodies), I just think that people are already socialized once they get here (to fandom) and so the fact that most of us are socialized female affects the discourse. You know?
ever since i was first mistaken for a guy online, i've always wanted to be totally clear in my blogs or whatever that there was no assumption of gender when i was talking about another fan. i kind of totally hate ladies-only, dudes-only things. it's like, what the fuck. how are you even defining that.
let's go make our own fandom, yo. a fandom where body parts don't matter except they are YOURS! etc etc.
truthfully i wish people would just shut up about their fucking meta, though, most of the time. tell someone if they're being an ass, but better yet, how about everyone just not being asses in the first place?
anyway. uh. yeeeeah. i haven't read the original post and don't really intend to; somehow i ended up venting! my apologies.
I want to have a trans party, where everyone is welcome. You show up at the door, declare that you do not 100% meet the requirements of your social gender, and you get in.
tell someone if they're being an ass, but better yet, how about everyone just not being asses in the first place?
Oh wow. Common sense does not belong in fandom!
No apologies necessary. My journal is a safe space for ranting!
as an aside, i really like it when basically anybody holds hands.elfiepikeNovember 10 2007, 21:24:25 UTC
you know, though, i was totally thinking today about how awesome it is that pete wentz, while i think he's kind of a douchebag, is really comfortable going around in his eyeliner and talking about how much he loves his BFF, and that spencer and ryan or ryan and brendon hold hands in videos, and etc etc etc, because these are totally examples of dudes who don't fit into the macho stereotype of the stoic male. they could totally come to the trans party!
it's really interesting to me how many people are really tied to the idea of labels, though; i like labels but really only in the sense that it's a place to start, not a place to end. my grasp on generalities is not so great. (generally speaking, ahahahahahahaha.)
Well, thanks for the disclaimer anyway. Fandom itself is a space that encompasses everyone, but *my* space is nearly entirely female and thus is a female space. The few straight men on my flist don't engage in fandom in the same way I do. My meta was really about my space, my journal, my flist and my experiences therein. It wasn't a general statement. That was lost a bit in the fact that this was only one discussion among many that took place over several months and journals. I have no idea why Metafandom chose to link to mine.
Hey, you're welcome. And thanks for yours as well.
Fandom itself is a space that encompasses everyone, but *my* space is nearly entirely female and thus is a female space.
That's totally fine, you have the right to define your experience of fandom as you choose. I would, however, challenge the idea that "nearly everyone" in your space is female (unless you're frisking at the door--hey, it's your party), and possibly also your definition of "female" itself.
My experience has not necessarily included any more cisgender men than yours has, or people who identify as male at all, but my definition of my experience is not contingent on the gender or identification of those who share that experience with me.
I don't understand why so many people in fandom feel their definition of fandom and their experience therein must be contingent upon anybody's gender. I guess my brain is just wired wrong or something.
The few straight men on my flist don't engage in fandom in the same way I do.Okay, whatever
( ... )
No problem. Thanks for replying. All I can answer to, because I tend to think we come from really different places in both fandom and life is:
I would, however, challenge the idea that "nearly everyone" in your space is female (unless you're frisking at the door--hey, it's your party), and possibly also your definition of "female" itself.
Well, actually, maybe 15% of the people I have friended are an unknown to me, because they interact so little with me. Everyone else? I know their gender or I've met them in real life. Many tend to come from a feminist direction, so our conversations are often centered there. So, I feel fairly confident saying 'nearly everyone'.
I don't understand why so many people in fandom feel their definition of fandom and their experience therein must be contingent upon anybody's gender. I guess my brain is just wired wrong or something.I really don't hang out anywhere except my own corner of the SG-1 fandom, so all I can say is that for many women, their circles of friends in fandom tend to be other women,
( ... )
Comments 22
I have said similar things about "female space" because fandom is the first community I have ever been in where I did not feel the need to actively masquerade as "one of the boys". And the idea that the flip side of that can feel exclusionary to someone I quite like is, you know, sad. And I'm sure you know that most people mean it as, and want it to be, "safe space" rather than "exclusionary space" but I'll bet that doesn't help the emotional reaction.
*realizes she said nothing productive*
*obediently offers a hug*
Good luck with the "I got a new job" conversation. That one is a "that sucks but congratulations too!" thing, isn't it?
Reply
Yes, I totally get that. And no, it doesn't really help :P
It's mostly a problem of what people call things, and what their expectations and concrete actions (as opposed to political or theoretical posturing) are in relation to those labels. Which is, you know, why telepathy is so much better than the language system we've got (haha).
*words and hugs always appreciated, thank you*
I've had problems communicating with my boss since my very first day here, two years ago. This is going to be the best conversation EVER.
Reply
Because I hear you, dude. But also, how do we talk about the "facts" - that there are a disproportionate amount of women in this community and that that--obviously, I think--affects the kind of discourse that happens here?
P.S. Another thing that I think is missing in a lot of that kind of meta is the PLURALITY of female experience. Gotta balance that with the communal experience of sexism, as WELL as the any number of other -isms affecting folks' lives/fandom experiences. Ya know?
Reply
Yes. Exactly. Because wow, it is a thing that should be talked about and celebrated. Seriously.
But also, how do we talk about the "facts" - that there are a disproportionate amount of women in this community and that that--obviously, I think--affects the kind of discourse that happens here?
Okay, so, I'm one of those annoying people who thinks all gender is social--none of it is inherent beyond hormones influencing brain function--so to me, it's not obvious that fan discourse is naturally influenced by the disproportionate f:m ratio (of course, it's influenced as much as people think it should be, and in that people perform their gender with behaviours learned from childhood, blahdeblah I haven't got a lot of theory words).
P.S. Another thing that I think is missing in a lot of that kind of meta is the PLURALITY of female ( ... )
Reply
And yeah, I too think that gender is social (and the social is imbricated or constructed in relation to physical things like bodies), I just think that people are already socialized once they get here (to fandom) and so the fact that most of us are socialized female affects the discourse. You know?
Reply
You know?
I do, and that's totally what I meant. Higher learning is apparently good for the making your point clear. I should keep that in mind. /o\
Reply
let's go make our own fandom, yo. a fandom where body parts don't matter except they are YOURS! etc etc.
truthfully i wish people would just shut up about their fucking meta, though, most of the time. tell someone if they're being an ass, but better yet, how about everyone just not being asses in the first place?
anyway. uh. yeeeeah. i haven't read the original post and don't really intend to; somehow i ended up venting! my apologies.
Reply
how are you even defining that.
I want to have a trans party, where everyone is welcome. You show up at the door, declare that you do not 100% meet the requirements of your social gender, and you get in.
tell someone if they're being an ass, but better yet, how about everyone just not being asses in the first place?
Oh wow. Common sense does not belong in fandom!
No apologies necessary. My journal is a safe space for ranting!
Reply
it's really interesting to me how many people are really tied to the idea of labels, though; i like labels but really only in the sense that it's a place to start, not a place to end. my grasp on generalities is not so great. (generally speaking, ahahahahahahaha.)
Reply
Reply
Hey, you're welcome. And thanks for yours as well.
Fandom itself is a space that encompasses everyone, but *my* space is nearly entirely female and thus is a female space.
That's totally fine, you have the right to define your experience of fandom as you choose. I would, however, challenge the idea that "nearly everyone" in your space is female (unless you're frisking at the door--hey, it's your party), and possibly also your definition of "female" itself.
My experience has not necessarily included any more cisgender men than yours has, or people who identify as male at all, but my definition of my experience is not contingent on the gender or identification of those who share that experience with me.
I don't understand why so many people in fandom feel their definition of fandom and their experience therein must be contingent upon anybody's gender. I guess my brain is just wired wrong or something.
The few straight men on my flist don't engage in fandom in the same way I do.Okay, whatever ( ... )
Reply
I would, however, challenge the idea that "nearly everyone" in your space is female (unless you're frisking at the door--hey, it's your party), and possibly also your definition of "female" itself.
Well, actually, maybe 15% of the people I have friended are an unknown to me, because they interact so little with me. Everyone else? I know their gender or I've met them in real life. Many tend to come from a feminist direction, so our conversations are often centered there. So, I feel fairly confident saying 'nearly everyone'.
I don't understand why so many people in fandom feel their definition of fandom and their experience therein must be contingent upon anybody's gender. I guess my brain is just wired wrong or something.I really don't hang out anywhere except my own corner of the SG-1 fandom, so all I can say is that for many women, their circles of friends in fandom tend to be other women, ( ... )
Reply
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