Bris kit

[texaslawchick]

I was just talking about this subject with some friends.

The case here is in a divorce. The father has sole custody of his 12 year old son, and he recently converted to Judaism. He wants to circumcise the boy. His ex-wife objects on grounds that it's physical and sexual abuse. It appears that the kid's wishes on the subject are unknown

Comments

[tourogal]

as a side note, if the boy is 12, and converts to judaism with his father, at 13, he will need to re-convert and re-affirm so to speak that this is something he would like to do. according to jewish law, adulthood starts at 13 for a boy and 12 for a girl. so, they would have converted as a child, and need to decide again for themselves as an adult.

[cricketnyc]

It doesn't matter if the father converted- the child is not a jew. He can choose to convert once he is an adult, but his mother is not a jew and therefore he is not. Furthermore, in Judaism, the bris is to take place on the 8th day of life (I don't remember why this is), and symbolizes the covenant the parents make with God to raise their child as a jew. None of this applies. Not an iota. The child has not heretofore been raised as a jew, nor is he considered a jew by jewish law. And he's certainly not 8 days old. Whether or not one believes in circumcision, it's insulting that he's trying to hide behind religious freedom while doing potential physical, and surely emotional, harm to his child.

[tourogal]

boys and men, on converting, do get circumsized.

converts, if done according to orthodox law, are jewish, and it is against biblical law to treat them otherwise.

8 days comes from abraham and his circumcision at the age of 99.

[cricketnyc]

But the child hasn't converted. At this point, he isn't jewish. If he chooses conversion, and the circumcision that would accompany that (if he's orthodox), that's just it- a choice, HIS choice. It's not for his father to choose.

[tourogal]

even if he did convert now, he would have to re-convert at 13. because at bar mitzvah he becomes an adult.

[badrahessa]

When I was a teen and had my son, it was an assumed thing, based solely on it being "cleaner" and easier to maintain as a parent as well. Everyone I knew and all their children were clipped.

It wasn't until I was 31 that I saw one that hadn't been transformed at birth, and found that when properly maintained they were just as "clean" as their non-hooded brethren.

The bias owner of said "hoody" swear up and down that clippingh makes the member shorter when turgid. I'm not so sure I believe him on that count.

I have to say though, I still prefer the clipped. It's like it's programmed in my head that the clipped version is more attractive and clean.

[stexgirl2000]

Depending on the branch of Judaism the man converted to, there are some options to fulfill the religious obligation. For Orthodox and Conservative Jews, if the son was to convert as well, there are two ways the boy could be fulfill the rituals of conversion: full circumcision (which is painful past a very young age and thus has to be done as an operational procedure with a Rabbi or Mohel there to say the appropriate blessings) or if a boy is already circumcised, there is a ritual pinprick of blood with appropriate prayers which isn't painful at all

[rainbow]

i dimly remember cat reading about a support group years ago that is men who were cxed and felt they'd been mutilated. i think there was something about surgical reconstruction adn non-surgical reconstruction.

i don't see how they aren't both genital mutilation. yes, one has more lifelong effects and way higher death and infection rates, but to me saying male cx is okay cause it's not as bad as female is kind of like saynig beating your kid is okay so long as you dont kill them or break any bones. you are literally mutilating their genitals for boys and for girls.

[rainbow]

Because I am jewish, and it's proscribed that boys be circumsized, it really bothers me when people compare it to female genital mutilation. Some of that, I admit, is a knee-jerk reaction.

I agree that the boy isn't jewish. But I likewise disagree that it's not up to the father to decide if he should be.

It's so complicated.

Bn'B

[rainbow]

i'm sorry that hearing that bothers you, and i understand why it would. i think you may be right about some of it being a knee jerk reaction, adn it think i veyr normal one, too, because being raised to believe x is normal and healthy and then having society/culture challenge that is never, ever going to be easy, i don't think.

at the same time i do still think that cutting off a piece of someone's flesh for non-medical reasons is mutilation, and i think for adults to decide that for themselves is absolutely fine. but when it comes to doing it to children, i think it gets a lot trickier.

it really is very, very complicated. i think balancing historical religious requirements with modern belief systems must be awfly difficult and frustrating.

[rainbow]

I don't have a son. I will never have a son, because I am finished with my child bearing