Busted, and a ruling

[terrencechan]

I'm busted. Short-stacked, doubled through with 99 vs. AK all-in preflop, then lost with AK to JJ all-in pre-flop.

Here's a hypothetical question that didn't actually come up, but which we asked Matt Savage about.

Edit: Voting is now closed. Click here for the conclusion.

Poll floor!

Comments

[gobbitas]

I find it funny how 3 people can see a difference in these two situations...

[kylebee]

I voted differently; in the second situation the person has put in over half the raise amount (with three chips, where two T500 chips would be an obvious call), which constitutes a raise in every casino I've been in. Though I am not well-versed in tournament rules, I am almost positive that my interpretation of the situation is spot-on for cash games.

[cork_dork]

You're spot-on, as you said. In situation 1, the player tosses in just enough to call, and no extra chips (the assumption is that the intent is to call unless a raise is obviously intended). In situation 2, 2 T500 chips would call, which means the extra T500 chip is an obvious attempt at a raise.

[chrisdanek]

I disagree - the raise amount only comes into play when determining if the action has been reopened for another person to whom the action had been previously closed (and is a half-bet for limit and a full-bet for NL, which hasn't been reached here).

While the intent of the 400/800 player seems clearly to raise, both players throw in more than the amount to call without any verbal declaration and simply need to be held to their actions as a matter of consistency in rules enforcement. Minraises they are.

[loser_variable]

Oops, misread the first one. Should be "call" if the BB is 600.

[787style]

It's my recollection that's it's only a single chip call, when there is more than one chip it's a raise. But, it's been a while.

[quietlion]

I've been bringing up this point for years. It's not covered in the TDA rules, which say "one chip" but not "the minimum number of chips to cover a call." In a 75/150 limit game where the blinds are 50/75 or 25/75, cutoff raises to 150 and button puts in two black chips. What does it mean to toss in two black chips? That's more than half a raise.

[prock]

Almost word for word:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~prock/rb.avi

[quietlion]

Says the file is corrupt.

[prock]

I think you might have downloaded it too quickly. Try again.

[boffo]

What's wrong with the dealer stopping action to ask what he's trying to do? I don't see this as any different than if someone who only has large denomination chips says, "I raise to [mumble mumble]" and tosses in a 10,000 chip.

In situations that aren't clearly covered by the rules, it just seems common sense to me for the dealer to halt action to determine what the player's trying to do.

It might be different if there was action behind him. Although in that case, I think it's the responsibility of the next person to act to stop and ask, "Uh, what the hell is that?"

[billybizzle]

What's wrong with the dealer stopping action to ask what he's trying to do?
A lot of angle shooting potential here, especially in shortstacked games (the best example I could think of would be STTs, a lot of the time of which you spend the time with between 5 and 15 bbs and the game is shorthanded). Being able to gauge the reactions of the players behind you when you make an "innocent" mistake could potentially be very valuable.

[siyokoy]

not only did i think they were both raises, i thought they were so clear i didnt realize there was room for debate
haha