Buffy Comics/Buffy Forum
Some rants/thoughts/getting things off my chest...again...
A couple of days ago I posted to the Buffy forums and made two posts that were backed by emotional anger/disappointment towards the comics. Also towards a few posters.
I tried not to go back after posting those two replies, wanting to just forget the whole of the comics. But today I peeked. I did because I wanted to see what type of replies I got to my posts and generally what people thought of the recent news for the comics.
First, while I should reply to the poster directly on Buffy forums, I really don't want to get into it. In fact, I just want to get this off my chest and be done with it. I'll probably finish my spuffy fanfics before just taking a break from the 'verse.
Now, as to the reply to my post, it was basically regarding Spike having sex with Morgan so soon, coming from Buffy. I felt it was in bad taste, most people handed waved it. The poster's reason was the it allowed Spike to have complex feelings, citing Buffy in season 8, having feelings for Xander, Angel, and Spike all at the same time. The poster also made a few remarks that I felt were a personal attack, or ad hominem, about having poor understanding about relationships or some such.
In regards to the complex feeling angle? I don't see it. Sure, people have attractions to other people while in a relationship (and NO, Spike and Buffy are not in any sort of one). I've been married 10 years. I totally understand finding others attractive or desirable while having feelings for someone else. The point is of course, in action. I never act on any of those passing feelings. Because that's all they are. As for Buffy in season 8, her "complex emotions" did not paint her in a good light. She only went after Xander when she found about about him dating her sister, then a day later jumped Angel, only to fantasize about Spike hours later. It, to me, did not make her feelings for Xander look genuine. It also made her feelings for Angel look silly. And it didn't really do much for what I thought she felt for Spike either. So the complexities came off as shallow feelings, because she acted on 2 out of 3 of them. If anything they did make her look fickle too. She doesn't know what she wants. In the end, she didn't want any. That doesn't help his argument, in my opinion, that Spike sleeping with Morgan, is a good idea or that it doesn't make Spike's feelings appear shallow either.
If Spike sleeps with Morgan, so soon after his confession, to me, it really does make it seem that his feelings for Buffy weren't that strong in the end. It doesn't mean he'll just stop loving her on the spot or that he never loved her. I'm not going to the extreme one way or the other. It just means that he wasn't really serious about Buffy. Maybe he is more over her than he realizes. Plus, I don't think having Spike jump in bed with another woman so soon is great way to say "hey, he's moved on from Buffy!"
I've asked others this same thing, without mentioning names, just "If a man confesses, gets rejected, then sleeps with the first interested woman, how does that look?" Most told me that it looks like that man didn't have strong feelings after all. To me, Spike sleeping with Morgan is distasteful for how it can be interpreted regarding who Spike is as a whole. Again, I'm not saying Spike has to stay celibate. He can sleep with Morgan or another girl, but down the road, maybe after season 9 or at the end of it, once, and only after, he figures out what he wants. He can have a sexathon after that. Hell, Spike could have had a sexathon before he confessed and I'd have less issues with it.
Spike confessed and realized he still has feelings for Buffy. She rejected him, again. So, now he wants to figure out his place in the world...yet they have him paired up with a woman two issues in...I really don't find this in good taste at all. Spike issues to be compounded and highlighted by his dealing with a woman, when the start of the story was about his place in the world, not only makes it seem that his place in the world is determined by the women in his world, it feels like Spike's issues aren't allowed exploration by virtue of any other means. It's predictable and trite. And places Spike in the sole role of love interest by focusing it on a woman. Spike wouldn't pass the Bechdel Test if he was a woman.
I also find the Morgan character a bit cliched. I'd rather see Spike with another Slayer or a human that isn't some bad girl. I like the juxtaposition of Spike being with someone more his opposite than with a carbon copy of himself. It's a reason I was never on board with Spike/Faith.
Jumping back, whenever I post on Buffy forums, I never ever seem to make myself clear. Always people assume I'm being black and white about an issue. If I criticize the comics, I hate it, if I don't like something, then I'm going for the extreme. Just because I don't like them using sex and a woman, doesn't mean I think he has zero real love for Buffy or that he has to be celibate. The writers picked to do this and I just find it so...degrading? Let Spike slowly progress to sleeping with someone for comfort, let him sort his feelings out first, before having him be with another woman.
Moving on though? I'm moving on, or I'm going to try. I don't want to be invested in these comics anymore. All my bare minimum expectations have been shot to hell. And some might think that I mean I wanted Spike forefront in every issue and for spuffy to get married like some weird spuffy fanfic. My expectations? That Spike would have a role that helped Buffy, that he'd be important to the story overall and not just to Buffy (and interact with more than just Buffy), that he'd get some development, and that Spike and Buffy would work out some of their baggage (not all, just touch on one or two issues) and maybe near the end of season 9 have a possibility that they may get together...one day, but it would be obvious that Buffy once loved Spike and that they still care about each other. I'd figure that Spike would get at least a few panels every or every other issue. I pretty much enjoyed issues 1-4 the most (and issue 6) the most out of the whole of season 8 and 9. That spuffy came up so soon actually made my very unhappy. I was excited, but dreaded it.
The Guarded Arc and the A(part) of Me arc pissed me off the most. The latter because of the writing and how spuffy was portrayed. Guarded because none of Buffy's Angel issues were touched on or her Ats season 5 issues, why she had not felt like herself recently (the events of season 8 were basically ignored almost), nor had any foreshadowing of the plot, and the ending was anticlimactic as fuck. That Arc felt like it could have been done in 1 or 2 issues. Billy? Just not interested as much. I tried reading the first few pages, but I got bored with it fast. It felt really out of place too unfortunately. I like what they were trying to do and I do like that Buffy is in a better place now. However, the execution in both these arcs were dreadful to me and felt completed disjoined from the rest of the season. And the whole buildup of season 9 has fritzed out.
Finding out how late Spike would be returning...only aggravated me more. He won't return until he'll serve no story purpose or be able interact with anyone else. He won't be in season 10, I'm almost positive. With how season 9 has gone down though I will not be around for 10 anyway, so I guess it won't matter to me. Still, I feel that I figured out the original purpose Spike was supposed to have in season 9 and the potential for the original plan was so awesome that how it turned out upsets me like you wouldn't believe. Spike would have had a non-Buffy purpose that still focused on Buffy. It would have been great.
It's a shame too. I was pretty much the perfect fan for DH (I love comics and Buffy and I didn't really enjoy IDW's Spike at all), I was very much willing to give DH a second chance after season 8 (plus more often than not, liked the Spike they were writing). I'd allow myself to disconnect season 8 somewhat so I could enjoy season 9. And I'm okay with over the top plot devices. I'm okay with spaceships, Giant Dawn, and robot Buffy. So long as the characters remain true to themselves and so do the relationships between those characters...all the while progressing them. Having felt burnt by season 9 and lied to by DH, I only now go back to re-evaluate season 8. And it sickens me. They had Angel basically rape Buffy in the spacefuck for a whole issue while squeezing in the Spike and Buffy reunion as an afterthought. They were so caught up telling a story of betrayal that they forgot the characters and the relationships.
I guess, some would think that this is all shipper bias too. That what I mean is that Spike and Buffy should be the forefront of the story, etc. Yes, I do prefer spuffy and Spike, and yes, that sometimes clouds my judgement. But being aware of that I don't say these things with an agenda or secret meaning. When I say true to character and relationships I mean that Buffy, the one that would never let a person die, wouldn't let people casually die if she could save them. Or that she wouldn't risk her rocky sister relationship on trying to win Xander from Dawn by confessing. Or would tell Spike something as he left, even a "A can't be with you now, because I'm not ready" or "I don't know what I feel for you anymore." Season 8 and season 9 did have times when I felt the characters were true to themselves and at those times I enjoyed it. So I'm not saying that all is bad. But just a few times can't make up for all the times when I just felt so disconnected with the characters that I just couldn't enjoy it or I was counting the pages until it was over (more like a chore).
Sadly, I was even disappointed in Angel and Faith. Allie was pretty petty and mean saying that people thinking Angel is being whitewashed just say that because they are bitter shippers. I don't like what has happened between Spike and Buffy and sure as hell don't think it was worth waiting for. But that doesn't mean I have it out for Angel. I was never his biggest fan. Sometimes I really don't like Angel, but I sure as hell find him fascinating and can relate to him at times. I also want to see Angel get better and recover from season 8. I'm not malicious enough to wish bad things on Angel just because he isn't my guy. Anyone who has ever read my fan fictions would know I don't bash or hate on characters in them. I want the best for all characters.
In fact, at the beginning of season 9 I was so eager because of the potential storyline for Angel. I was really apprehensive so I didn't invest in it and I'm glad I didn't, but at first I was almost giddy. You know why? Because season 7 was what made me a huge Spike fan. Wait...what does Spike have to do with this? Well, I thought season 9 was going to be a season 7 for Angel. That I'd end up being a fan of Angel's, because I wanted to be, because I found him fascinating and relatable. Instead though, I have found myself really disliking and disconnecting with Angel. I can't find myself to care about him at all with how they are treating him. He is victim blaming, villainizing victims, and generally wasting the greatness that could have been.
Sometimes it feels like DH and Joss really need a checks and balances system in place. They don't seem to be able to come down from their high horse and realize what they are doing to their characters and their franchise. If they could just find a way to make sure they don't go overboard with their characterization or plot, I think they could make good products and story. Unfortunately though, I don't think they ever will. I've heard how shaddy DH can be and I think the bottom line is going to be sales for them and not story. They know good stories sell, but they want to tell the story they want to tell all the while making as much money as possible, disregarding any real organic and believable characterization.
All that, combined with looking back at season 8, and I just get more and more upset and disinterested. And I was the perfect demographic for DH...the perfect person who'd invest. Who'd been loyal. Who'd also point out their shortcomings and when they'd hit a high note. Instead I feel lied to. Utterly betrayed and disappointed. These comics have literally soured the TV show for me and made me question all the things I hold dear about the TV show.
Spike gave me hope, about being able to change. Buffy gave me strength to go on. These two characters have helped me these last few years during really difficult times. And now, I don't know if the power is true. And it hurts. That is why I'm done.
A couple of days ago I posted to the Buffy forums and made two posts that were backed by emotional anger/disappointment towards the comics. Also towards a few posters.
I tried not to go back after posting those two replies, wanting to just forget the whole of the comics. But today I peeked. I did because I wanted to see what type of replies I got to my posts and generally what people thought of the recent news for the comics.
First, while I should reply to the poster directly on Buffy forums, I really don't want to get into it. In fact, I just want to get this off my chest and be done with it. I'll probably finish my spuffy fanfics before just taking a break from the 'verse.
Now, as to the reply to my post, it was basically regarding Spike having sex with Morgan so soon, coming from Buffy. I felt it was in bad taste, most people handed waved it. The poster's reason was the it allowed Spike to have complex feelings, citing Buffy in season 8, having feelings for Xander, Angel, and Spike all at the same time. The poster also made a few remarks that I felt were a personal attack, or ad hominem, about having poor understanding about relationships or some such.
In regards to the complex feeling angle? I don't see it. Sure, people have attractions to other people while in a relationship (and NO, Spike and Buffy are not in any sort of one). I've been married 10 years. I totally understand finding others attractive or desirable while having feelings for someone else. The point is of course, in action. I never act on any of those passing feelings. Because that's all they are. As for Buffy in season 8, her "complex emotions" did not paint her in a good light. She only went after Xander when she found about about him dating her sister, then a day later jumped Angel, only to fantasize about Spike hours later. It, to me, did not make her feelings for Xander look genuine. It also made her feelings for Angel look silly. And it didn't really do much for what I thought she felt for Spike either. So the complexities came off as shallow feelings, because she acted on 2 out of 3 of them. If anything they did make her look fickle too. She doesn't know what she wants. In the end, she didn't want any. That doesn't help his argument, in my opinion, that Spike sleeping with Morgan, is a good idea or that it doesn't make Spike's feelings appear shallow either.
If Spike sleeps with Morgan, so soon after his confession, to me, it really does make it seem that his feelings for Buffy weren't that strong in the end. It doesn't mean he'll just stop loving her on the spot or that he never loved her. I'm not going to the extreme one way or the other. It just means that he wasn't really serious about Buffy. Maybe he is more over her than he realizes. Plus, I don't think having Spike jump in bed with another woman so soon is great way to say "hey, he's moved on from Buffy!"
I've asked others this same thing, without mentioning names, just "If a man confesses, gets rejected, then sleeps with the first interested woman, how does that look?" Most told me that it looks like that man didn't have strong feelings after all. To me, Spike sleeping with Morgan is distasteful for how it can be interpreted regarding who Spike is as a whole. Again, I'm not saying Spike has to stay celibate. He can sleep with Morgan or another girl, but down the road, maybe after season 9 or at the end of it, once, and only after, he figures out what he wants. He can have a sexathon after that. Hell, Spike could have had a sexathon before he confessed and I'd have less issues with it.
Spike confessed and realized he still has feelings for Buffy. She rejected him, again. So, now he wants to figure out his place in the world...yet they have him paired up with a woman two issues in...I really don't find this in good taste at all. Spike issues to be compounded and highlighted by his dealing with a woman, when the start of the story was about his place in the world, not only makes it seem that his place in the world is determined by the women in his world, it feels like Spike's issues aren't allowed exploration by virtue of any other means. It's predictable and trite. And places Spike in the sole role of love interest by focusing it on a woman. Spike wouldn't pass the Bechdel Test if he was a woman.
I also find the Morgan character a bit cliched. I'd rather see Spike with another Slayer or a human that isn't some bad girl. I like the juxtaposition of Spike being with someone more his opposite than with a carbon copy of himself. It's a reason I was never on board with Spike/Faith.
Jumping back, whenever I post on Buffy forums, I never ever seem to make myself clear. Always people assume I'm being black and white about an issue. If I criticize the comics, I hate it, if I don't like something, then I'm going for the extreme. Just because I don't like them using sex and a woman, doesn't mean I think he has zero real love for Buffy or that he has to be celibate. The writers picked to do this and I just find it so...degrading? Let Spike slowly progress to sleeping with someone for comfort, let him sort his feelings out first, before having him be with another woman.
Moving on though? I'm moving on, or I'm going to try. I don't want to be invested in these comics anymore. All my bare minimum expectations have been shot to hell. And some might think that I mean I wanted Spike forefront in every issue and for spuffy to get married like some weird spuffy fanfic. My expectations? That Spike would have a role that helped Buffy, that he'd be important to the story overall and not just to Buffy (and interact with more than just Buffy), that he'd get some development, and that Spike and Buffy would work out some of their baggage (not all, just touch on one or two issues) and maybe near the end of season 9 have a possibility that they may get together...one day, but it would be obvious that Buffy once loved Spike and that they still care about each other. I'd figure that Spike would get at least a few panels every or every other issue. I pretty much enjoyed issues 1-4 the most (and issue 6) the most out of the whole of season 8 and 9. That spuffy came up so soon actually made my very unhappy. I was excited, but dreaded it.
The Guarded Arc and the A(part) of Me arc pissed me off the most. The latter because of the writing and how spuffy was portrayed. Guarded because none of Buffy's Angel issues were touched on or her Ats season 5 issues, why she had not felt like herself recently (the events of season 8 were basically ignored almost), nor had any foreshadowing of the plot, and the ending was anticlimactic as fuck. That Arc felt like it could have been done in 1 or 2 issues. Billy? Just not interested as much. I tried reading the first few pages, but I got bored with it fast. It felt really out of place too unfortunately. I like what they were trying to do and I do like that Buffy is in a better place now. However, the execution in both these arcs were dreadful to me and felt completed disjoined from the rest of the season. And the whole buildup of season 9 has fritzed out.
Finding out how late Spike would be returning...only aggravated me more. He won't return until he'll serve no story purpose or be able interact with anyone else. He won't be in season 10, I'm almost positive. With how season 9 has gone down though I will not be around for 10 anyway, so I guess it won't matter to me. Still, I feel that I figured out the original purpose Spike was supposed to have in season 9 and the potential for the original plan was so awesome that how it turned out upsets me like you wouldn't believe. Spike would have had a non-Buffy purpose that still focused on Buffy. It would have been great.
It's a shame too. I was pretty much the perfect fan for DH (I love comics and Buffy and I didn't really enjoy IDW's Spike at all), I was very much willing to give DH a second chance after season 8 (plus more often than not, liked the Spike they were writing). I'd allow myself to disconnect season 8 somewhat so I could enjoy season 9. And I'm okay with over the top plot devices. I'm okay with spaceships, Giant Dawn, and robot Buffy. So long as the characters remain true to themselves and so do the relationships between those characters...all the while progressing them. Having felt burnt by season 9 and lied to by DH, I only now go back to re-evaluate season 8. And it sickens me. They had Angel basically rape Buffy in the spacefuck for a whole issue while squeezing in the Spike and Buffy reunion as an afterthought. They were so caught up telling a story of betrayal that they forgot the characters and the relationships.
I guess, some would think that this is all shipper bias too. That what I mean is that Spike and Buffy should be the forefront of the story, etc. Yes, I do prefer spuffy and Spike, and yes, that sometimes clouds my judgement. But being aware of that I don't say these things with an agenda or secret meaning. When I say true to character and relationships I mean that Buffy, the one that would never let a person die, wouldn't let people casually die if she could save them. Or that she wouldn't risk her rocky sister relationship on trying to win Xander from Dawn by confessing. Or would tell Spike something as he left, even a "A can't be with you now, because I'm not ready" or "I don't know what I feel for you anymore." Season 8 and season 9 did have times when I felt the characters were true to themselves and at those times I enjoyed it. So I'm not saying that all is bad. But just a few times can't make up for all the times when I just felt so disconnected with the characters that I just couldn't enjoy it or I was counting the pages until it was over (more like a chore).
Sadly, I was even disappointed in Angel and Faith. Allie was pretty petty and mean saying that people thinking Angel is being whitewashed just say that because they are bitter shippers. I don't like what has happened between Spike and Buffy and sure as hell don't think it was worth waiting for. But that doesn't mean I have it out for Angel. I was never his biggest fan. Sometimes I really don't like Angel, but I sure as hell find him fascinating and can relate to him at times. I also want to see Angel get better and recover from season 8. I'm not malicious enough to wish bad things on Angel just because he isn't my guy. Anyone who has ever read my fan fictions would know I don't bash or hate on characters in them. I want the best for all characters.
In fact, at the beginning of season 9 I was so eager because of the potential storyline for Angel. I was really apprehensive so I didn't invest in it and I'm glad I didn't, but at first I was almost giddy. You know why? Because season 7 was what made me a huge Spike fan. Wait...what does Spike have to do with this? Well, I thought season 9 was going to be a season 7 for Angel. That I'd end up being a fan of Angel's, because I wanted to be, because I found him fascinating and relatable. Instead though, I have found myself really disliking and disconnecting with Angel. I can't find myself to care about him at all with how they are treating him. He is victim blaming, villainizing victims, and generally wasting the greatness that could have been.
Sometimes it feels like DH and Joss really need a checks and balances system in place. They don't seem to be able to come down from their high horse and realize what they are doing to their characters and their franchise. If they could just find a way to make sure they don't go overboard with their characterization or plot, I think they could make good products and story. Unfortunately though, I don't think they ever will. I've heard how shaddy DH can be and I think the bottom line is going to be sales for them and not story. They know good stories sell, but they want to tell the story they want to tell all the while making as much money as possible, disregarding any real organic and believable characterization.
All that, combined with looking back at season 8, and I just get more and more upset and disinterested. And I was the perfect demographic for DH...the perfect person who'd invest. Who'd been loyal. Who'd also point out their shortcomings and when they'd hit a high note. Instead I feel lied to. Utterly betrayed and disappointed. These comics have literally soured the TV show for me and made me question all the things I hold dear about the TV show.
Spike gave me hope, about being able to change. Buffy gave me strength to go on. These two characters have helped me these last few years during really difficult times. And now, I don't know if the power is true. And it hurts. That is why I'm done.