The Moral High Ground

[tashiro]

Part of a reply I made in an earlier journal entry involved the Monkey Sphere -- the human inability to consider more than a limited number of people as individuals and important.  The less important someone is, the less they're considered an individual, and the more they become an archetype or character than an actual person.  They're not

Comments

[shiftercat]

Yeah, problem is? Just saying, "Remember they're human beings blah blah blah" isn't going to do anything. Unless people are willing to go out and interact with people who aren't like them, reminders of "Those guys are human too" are just going to be hollow catchphrases.

Now, there's another possible solution: I recall from Grossman's On Killing that there are two tactics widely used by soldiers to avoid some of the psychological damage caused by killing. One is to consider the enemy as something less than fully human -- I trust I don't have to elaborate on why that causes problems

[kyn_elwynn]

I am reminded of a scene in the animated film "American Pop" (I think) where a Nazi and a U.S. soldier are in a busted building, the U.S. guy comes across a beautiful piano, and feels sympathy for such a fine instrument to be caught in a warzone. He was a musician back home, so he sets down at it and the Nazi comes up on him. He orders him to play a tune (I think it was an old German folk song or lullaby or some such) and when it ends, the German thanks the U.S. soldier. Then shoots him.

[brother_dour]

What leads you to believe that the U.S. has no strategy whatsoever?

[shiftercat]

First, because this is a complaint made by several people more versed in military stuff than I am. (Another common complaint: "Bush Jr. should have listened to his military advisors and not gone in with no exit strategy.")

Second, because unless their strategy is "Look like we have no fucking clue what we're doing aside from hanging around and shooting at things that might shoot at us", there is no strategy in evidence.

Empathy

[shiftercat]

Fred Clark argues here that empathy makes you smarter, because it motivates you to seek out different points of view. He also argues that rather than stupidity causing bigotry, the reverse is true: bigotry makes you stupid.

Elsewhere, he offers this interesting quote: If a friend of mine had said to me, a year ago, "Those Republicans, they're anti-empathy," I might have lectured him on civility.

"That sort of hyperbole isn't constructive," I might have said. "Of course they're not opposed to empathy. They're not monsters. To be opposed to empathy would make you a sociopathic fiend and a solipsistic moron. Let's just stick to policy disagreements and not stoop to such hideous accusations."

But it has been the Republicans themselves, over the past year, loudly proclaiming this opposition to empathy, proudly boasting that this vicious insult must be applied to them. And they've even managed, with disturbing consistency, to act as though it were really true. It's just baffling.

[kyn_elwynn]

An issue to keep in mind when poo-pooing the actions of the military or the police is that their training forces them to not think or have pathos to their suspect/rival. Allowing that moment of consideration for "Maybe this guy is just having a bad day" can't factor into the potential dangers that might lie in place of a crime scene or in a warzone. Additionally, many conflicts are done due to culture clashes. As the world has shrunk down, more and more cultures with widely differing opinions on the very basic fundamentals on how to live and believe and behave are clashing and the technology is advancing to where they can come into more direct confrontation with those that are antethical to their culture and beliefs. Certainly you want to take the high road and state, "I do not hate you, I embrace your differences and wish to hear about them." However, there's no way for certain to know if they have similar sentiment, or if they even are programmed to feel it

[brother_dour]

"Maybe then, when some suits decide to screw over a few million people to make prophit

[tashiro]

That's why I call it taking the moral high road. Just because someone else is being a rat bastard doesn't mean we have to be as well.

[shiftercat]

This is why I endorse assassination of enemy politicians. Saves a lot of people from getting killed, on both sides. Yet for some reason, most people gasp and waggle their fingers at me when I suggest this. Sure, there is always someone ready to take over, but it sends a powerful message: straighten up your we'll off that leader, too. And the next. And the next. And the next...
Two things

[mikepictor]

2 thoughts

[brother_dour]

And I would like to add that it is a LOT better today than it was in past conflicts. In WWII, the Allies did not hesitate to carpet bomb German cities, civilians be damned, just as the Germans blitzed England. Part of this was due to the wildly inaccurate bombing sights of the day, but still...the consideration that the modern U.S. military among others gives to preventing collateral damage is leaps and bounds ahead.

And I'm not even going to mention Vietnam....

[ajeya]

As Mike above said "empathy for the enemy translates directly into casualties for your side". The British and the Americans knew that 1943's version of 'precision daylight bombing' was anything but and despite that individual crews by and large (according to Brian O'Niell's Half a Wing*) did their best to put bombs on the actual target (particularly over occupied territory). But over Germany they were a lot less picky and most of the large cities suffered destruction on a massive scale. They knew that civilians were suffering and each had their own feelings about that, but the necessary goal was to destroy Germany's ability to wage war

[tashiro]

Tashiro feels that is murder... maybe even "mass murder" since it happened on a scale that makes Apache gun camera footage seem a pale comparison. That sickens me, because it puts the actions of those 8th Air Force airmen on a moral balance scale with the massively depraved actions of the Nazi regime, who unquestionably committed mass murder. In my mind there's simply no comparison.

I consider taking a life to be murder. Even if it is self defence, you're taking a life. I can accept understanding it had to be done or justified considering the conditions of the time. The thing is, I want people to accept it as murder, and to feel the weight of their actions. I can accept that wars happen, and I can understand that at times innocent lives will be lost. However, I can not accept that people are able to shrug off, ignore, diminish, or otherwise cast aside the understanding that they are taking lives, or destroying families.