Yes. Exactly. The hate for Muggles isn't the ideology, merely a political tool to get his demographic to agree with him. Also, we don't know all that much about the actual way Death Eaters are recruited, so it could be a campaign of fear--"We have to wipe them out before they wipe us out"--or a more hypocritcal campaign of duty--"We have to keep the wizarding world pure and honorable." Or a blend of the two. I do hope we see this in the future books, it could definitely shed light on the Dark Lord's motives.
There's the Voldemort/Hitler parallel, but... it doesn't work, because Voldemort doesn't hate all Muggles for what his father did to him, only his father. Also, most of the proof that Hitler was Jewish is now considered apocryphal.
The International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy, enacted in 1692, not only keeps knowledge of magic from Muggles but also shields magical folk from knowing about Muggles.Not necessarily. There's Muggle Studies and also, when Sirius Black was around, there was talk about guns in the Prophet. Ron knows
( ... )
As I said in the essay, guns existed well before the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy, although certainly not with the same deadliness and efficiency as the current models. But regardless, I do believe some information has come through since then - like "eckeltricity". :) What I mean is that since the primary channel of information is Muggleborn, most of the information coming in is harmless.
Except, of course, that Voldemort is no longer right the moment he takes the steps he's been taking - torture, murder, extortion, yadda yadda. Sorry - you've organized some no-brainer but frequently unspoken aspects of Voldemort's methods and possible motivations in a very eloquent way, but eh. Personally, I'm puzzled (and sometimes a little disturbed) by Potterfandom's penchant for extreme moral ambiguity/Death Eater sympathizing that goes hand in hand with "good guy" bashing (not that you're doing the latter, I just notice it a lot in general). Yes, all is not well in the default wizarding world, but that doesn't mean we all need to go and root for the bad guys, either. *shakes head*
But by the same merit, we hear the 'good guys' doing the same thing -- legally. I think, for me, the leg that side had to stand on was knocked right out from under them when it was legalised for Aurors and the like to use Unforgiveable Curses on suspected Death Eaters during the first war.
There is no good side in this, when both sides are doing this sort of thing, only a side each reader agrees with more.
I come down halfway between you two. Neither side is entirely right, but I think Dumbledore and the Aurors and Harry are more right than Voldemort, if only because they're fighting a defensive war - no matter what Voldemort's reasons, it was he who chose to make his revolution a violent one.
Yes! Thank you! I've been arguing this position for two years now. My stance has always been that Voldemort's position is sound, but his methods are flawed. It's the difference between violent retalliation in response to a threat and education reform to teach how to handle said threat. (Then, imagine Tom M. Riddle, Professor of Muggle Studies.)
I'd go into further detail, but I fear the pollen count has made consistent thought a bit difficult. :/ Kudos! And thanks again for putting this into such a concise format!
And agreed. Even if one doesn't go quite so far as to consider his position totally justified, I think it's clear his views did not just happen in a vacuum.
I wouldn't say *Voldemort's* goals have merit, as Voldemort's main goal seems to be immortality for himself (and he's gotten pretty far along that road, as even being disincorporated doesn't kill him). His interest in the Stone, his experimetn with the diary, and finally his re-incarnation via cauldron and rite all point to Voldemort being self-centered in pursuit of this goal
( ... )
I don't think that his quest for immortality and the goals I outlined above are mutually exclusive. Both indicate a burning desire for survival above all else: personally for Voldemort, through the Stone or the Diary, as well as for the Wizarding World as a whole, through his politics.
But you're right that some of the Death Eater movement is going counter to his goals. Perhaps he thought he could better control his DEs.
I think he's got fine control of the Death Eaters.
But the deaths and disappearance that the Death Eaters caused in the First War *damaged* the Wizarding World, destablizing it and making it *more* vulnerable to notice by Muggles, not less.
To repeat the same actions in the Second War, during the mid-1990s when there isn't even the terrorist fervor of the 1970s to screen them from Muggle notice, is sheer stupidity.
I really think that Voldemort hates the Wizarding World as much as the Muggle one, and would be quite happy to see one destroy the other.
I think that's as good an interpretation as mine. For me, I like to think that Voldemort has some affection for certain parts of wizarding society, just as he has some affection for certain people.
I think he's got fine control of the Death Eaters.
We know very little of what sort of control there was in the first war. As for the second, he's only just begun to gather his DEs around him again at the end of GoF. It's possible that he'll have difficulty keeping them from doing things that would endanger the WW.
Voldemort's aim really does seem to be immortality, and everything else is merely supportive of that. It's people such as Malfoy and Fudge who try to utilise this to either maintain or permanently establish the status quo. Over at civilitas, my Macnair was using Voldemort as an attempt to overthrow the flawed governmental process of the Ministry and establish a new, proto-fascist government that couild iron out the inefficiency of a half-Muggle Ministry. People like Malfoy are more concerned with blood than the laws, and above them is Voldemort, who has literally shed his humanity to become something more. A God among insects, really, which I think is why he doesn't kill people unless he has to- as if killing them messily is too much a bother, imbuing too much humanity on his victims.
Immortality would also give him further motive for distaste/hatred of Muggles- he was so nearly one of them, and if he had been he would have had no chance of immortality. Or at least physical immortality- narcissam has pointed out that Voldemort is the most
( ... )
I never considered the reverse-christian symbolism of Voldemort's births before. That sounds fascinating - do you know if it's been elaborated on anywhere?
skelkins gives a basic look at the Graveyard as cultural and religious taboos here: here, in the third section.
Violating cultural taboos is what leads to that sense of instinctive revulsion that gets translated to an emotional response of: "Oh, this is just so wrong."
Here are some issues that immediately leap to my mind as good candidates for this treatment: Sexuality. Religion. The Family. Treatment of the dead.
The Graveyard sequence hits every one of them.
The actual Christian symbolism is based around the sacrifice of the father and followers rather than the person themselves. Confession of the Death Eaters and the bestowal of punishment, not forgiveness. The cauldron as the grail. Immersion of his baby-like form as an obscene baptism. It goes on and on...
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There's the Voldemort/Hitler parallel, but... it doesn't work, because Voldemort doesn't hate all Muggles for what his father did to him, only his father. Also, most of the proof that Hitler was Jewish is now considered apocryphal.
The International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy, enacted in 1692, not only keeps knowledge of magic from Muggles but also shields magical folk from knowing about Muggles.Not necessarily. There's Muggle Studies and also, when Sirius Black was around, there was talk about guns in the Prophet. Ron knows ( ... )
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There is no good side in this, when both sides are doing this sort of thing, only a side each reader agrees with more.
- Andrea.
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I'd go into further detail, but I fear the pollen count has made consistent thought a bit difficult. :/ Kudos! And thanks again for putting this into such a concise format!
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And agreed. Even if one doesn't go quite so far as to consider his position totally justified, I think it's clear his views did not just happen in a vacuum.
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But you're right that some of the Death Eater movement is going counter to his goals. Perhaps he thought he could better control his DEs.
Reply
But the deaths and disappearance that the Death Eaters caused in the First War *damaged* the Wizarding World, destablizing it and making it *more* vulnerable to notice by Muggles, not less.
To repeat the same actions in the Second War, during the mid-1990s when there isn't even the terrorist fervor of the 1970s to screen them from Muggle notice, is sheer stupidity.
I really think that Voldemort hates the Wizarding World as much as the Muggle one, and would be quite happy to see one destroy the other.
Reply
I think he's got fine control of the Death Eaters.
We know very little of what sort of control there was in the first war. As for the second, he's only just begun to gather his DEs around him again at the end of GoF. It's possible that he'll have difficulty keeping them from doing things that would endanger the WW.
Reply
Voldemort's aim really does seem to be immortality, and everything else is merely supportive of that. It's people such as Malfoy and Fudge who try to utilise this to either maintain or permanently establish the status quo. Over at civilitas, my Macnair was using Voldemort as an attempt to overthrow the flawed governmental process of the Ministry and establish a new, proto-fascist government that couild iron out the inefficiency of a half-Muggle Ministry. People like Malfoy are more concerned with blood than the laws, and above them is Voldemort, who has literally shed his humanity to become something more. A God among insects, really, which I think is why he doesn't kill people unless he has to- as if killing them messily is too much a bother, imbuing too much humanity on his victims.
Immortality would also give him further motive for distaste/hatred of Muggles- he was so nearly one of them, and if he had been he would have had no chance of immortality. Or at least physical immortality- narcissam has pointed out that Voldemort is the most ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Violating cultural taboos is what leads to that sense of instinctive revulsion that gets translated to an emotional response of: "Oh, this is just so wrong."
Here are some issues that immediately leap to my mind as good candidates for this treatment: Sexuality. Religion. The Family. Treatment of the dead.
The Graveyard sequence hits every one of them.
The actual Christian symbolism is based around the sacrifice of the father and followers rather than the person themselves. Confession of the Death Eaters and the bestowal of punishment, not forgiveness. The cauldron as the grail. Immersion of his baby-like form as an obscene baptism. It goes on and on...
Reply
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