Willow Rosenberg and Slytherin (And Much More): A Study of Ambition

[sunclouds33]

A few weeks ago, I queried whether it was ethical/polite to argue with a Tumblr post on LJ. After hearing a resounding "It's kosher", I thought I'd take a stab. I had some rage at this Original Post putting Willow in Slytherin and actually MEGA BLINDING RAGE at the tags below where xlivvielockex agreed and described why

Comments

[velvetwhip]

First things first: I have never HP or seen the movies and I couldn't tell Slytherin from shinola as a result. However, your points about Willow shouldn't even need to be made. Feel free to dislike her (though I don't understand how), but do so for who she IS, not who she isn't.

Thank you.

And thank YOU for the essay here. You are by far my favorite writer of Willow meta.

Gabrielle

[sunclouds33]

Aw, shucks. Thank you! But damn right- back up your hate with Real Facts.

[pocochina]

"Other people are trying to solve problems and there's Willow over there with an efficient solution to said problems, GOD, FUCKING WILLOW, AMIRITE?" LOL.

I've come to doubt whether Willow fits a Slytherin model for ambition. Because Willow really doesn't advance as far as she can on any level. Obviously, she rejects Ivy League prestige and Microsoft-like recruitment as a high schooler. Willow could be a lot richer, a lot more prestigious according to the world's measuring stick, and generally live a more comfortable, charming life. Willow rejected that because she wanted to fight evil and be a bad-ass Wicca.Like, I certainly would not argue that Willow is not ambitious? Nor would I have the faintest desire for that aspect of the character to change. But any conceivable course of action which prioritized looking out for #1 over fighting the good fight would've involved ditching the Hellmouth the first chance she got. Like, oh, I don't know, since she came up, Cordelia did. I like Cordelia and I 100% applaud her getting out of that

[sunclouds33]

"Other people are trying to solve problems and there's Willow over there with an efficient solution to said problems, GOD, FUCKING WILLOW, AMIRITE?" LOL.LOL

[pocochina]

I think Cordelia is a mix between Hufflepuff and Slytherin.

I'm not sure Cordelia would do well in Hufflepuff? She values exclusivity too much for the come-one-come-all house, IMO. I don't know if she's more of a glory-seeker or a power-seeker, but she'd be good at either.

Wesley and Willow fit in all of the Houses.

Yeah, I mean, it's tricky because Sorting is meant to happen to kids, before they have the kind of life experience that spurs people to become more well-rounded and develop their less instinctive traits.

I could see Wesley as wanting very badly to be a Gryffindor, actually, though I don't know if he'd ultimately be happiest there.

[sunclouds33]

I'm not sure Cordelia would do well in Hufflepuff? She values exclusivity too much for the come-one-come-all house, IMO. I don't know if she's more of a glory-seeker or a power-seeker, but she'd be good at either.Good point on Cordelia. I said that she could be a Hufflepuff because a lot of her heroism on AtS is painted that way. She endures painful vision, she's the Team Mom, she cleans the hell blues out with love, she's loyal and comforting to Angel no matter what he does. Her Platonic Ideal of heroism is not usually a Gryffindor charge into a physical fight and actually, she does that *less* in AtS S2-3 than BtVS through AtS S1 as she's increasingly painted as Practically Perfect

[rosaxx50]

I am too tired to formulate a coherent reply right now, but I certainly agree with you that Willow's ambition and ~desire to show-off~ is oversold by fandom - Willow is ambituous but not nearly as ruthless and selfserving about it as some people like to believe. I'm not sure where I would place Willow. Like many wellnuanced characters, she could belong to any or all houses, including Slytherin (with its supposed fierce intrahouse loyalty?? I'm trying to remember where in canon this is really shown), but she would be the world's most adorable Slytherin.

[sunclouds33]

LOL, they don't make Slytherin's that cute. (But mmmmmm, Draco

[kikimay]

Let me understand something, because I'm new to this house sorting thing. I watched the HP movies just last year and I didn't read the book so I'm ignorant about the whole question ... but I've read the Slytherin characteristic traits and I also thought that they were fitting for Willow: ambition, cunning, loyalty towards her inner circle of friends ... I can see why somebody would put Willow in Slytherin. But I don't see why it's a bad thing. Admitting that Willow is driven by ambition and she's interested in having power and be powerful, why is that bad? I think that power is really important for Willow and for her storyline, ultimately her story is about gaining self-confidence, understanding power, dealing with moral issues about it and shaping the world to make it change. Honestly it seems to me a damn great storyline for a girl.

[rahirah]

If it were just that Slytherin's defining traits are ambition and cunning, that would be fine. But whether Rowling meant it that way or not, the books are written as if Slytherin = Bad Guy. There are no good Slytherins, period. There are a couple of ambiguous ones, but that's about it.

[kikimay]

But isn't supposed to be more equal than that? I mean, there are no good Slytherins? I also noticed the issue watching the movies. And almost all the heroes were Gryffindor. I think it's unfair. I was hoping that the books were a little bit better on that matter. (I read somewhere that the movies are a bit different - like it always happens - from the books)

[sunclouds33]

I think there's a good argument for putting Willow in Slytherin, mostly based on cunning and resourcefulness and drive than *ambition*. I argued with the Tumblr posters (the second more than the first) because they put Willow in Slytherin in an unfair, character-bashing way. However, I think Willow's an all-rounder but she's got Slytherin to her.

But still, as I argue in my essay, the dominant quality of Slytherin is ambitious and the secondary qualities are cunning and drive. I don't quite see Willow as ambitious (in a self-interested way) as I see her holding the primary qualities of the other Houses. I can argue that Willow's self-interested ambition. I think she's inarguably brave (Gryffindor), intelligent (Ravenclaw), and kind (Hufflepuff).

[sunclouds33]

I'm glad you liked it. I also love that you brought up the point of individual choice of Houses which was one of my favorite points in the books. JKR speaks to me, and that was one of my favorite twists/morals.

Agreed on Willow v. Cordelia. Pro-Cordelia folks also like to bash Willow and Xander to act like Cordelia's bullying and verbal abuse was justified because (two of) her targets were just so terrible. If Cordelia's the noblest and most wonderful Champion that ever was, Willow must really suck because Cordelia just has to be right for publicly belittling Willow as boring or singling her out in the hallway or courtyard to insult her clothes or college acceptances or not caring if Willow died as a vampire or not apologizing for inadvertently putting her down as a big fat lezbo.

[pocochina]

what's accepted as The Truth w/r/t Willow and Cordelia in fandom is a result of certain factions controlling the narrative because Cordelia is their favorite and they hate Willow for what happened with Xander cheating on Cordelia in S3 of BtVS.

ahahahaha

[local_max]

Great meta! I love well-reasoned sorting metas. <333 I actually think a big thing that would keep Willow out of Slytherin is that she probably wouldn't WANT to be there? I feel like fandom often forgets what an important role that choice can play and how informative it can be. I mean, the HP series itself says so!

I really agree with this. I think Harry slips into certain Slytherin modes of thinking from time to time also, but the thing that defines him is that he prefers Gryffindor values, not his set of inner impulses. We are our choices.

It took me a looooong time to realize that much of what's accepted as The Truth w/r/t Willow and Cordelia in fandom is a result of certain factions controlling the narrative because Cordelia is their favorite and they hate Willow for what happened with Xander cheating on Cordelia in S3 of BtVS. And they justify all their reactions to that as meta about the two girls, framed in moral terms. I mean, I don't think people necessarily consciously realize that this is influencing them, but...it is