I'm So Chatty!: Wesley Wyndam-Pryce and the Shipping News

[sunclouds33]

lokifan also asked me for two Wesley ships that I love and one Wesley ship that I dislike. Just as with CJ Cregg, I also went overboard and needed to write a whole separate entry.

Wesley/Lilah: LoveAngel sucks at established ships- except for Angel/Darla and Wesley/Lilah. I think Wesley/Lilah just might be my favorite. Wes/Lilah is a hugely popular ship

Comments

[velvetwhip]

Diggin' on the reasoning here. You always give me something about which to think.

Gabrielle

[sunclouds33]

Thank you! I'm glad you liked it!

[rosaxx50]

I've mostly been lurking over your entries, but I had to de-lurk to comment on this entry because WES/LILAH MY FLAWLESS BBs. You've pointed out a lot I hadn't thought of before. A lot of the time, I'm so into the push-pull of it, the way Wesley and Lilah, as you say, reflects the different sides of a redemptive arc, I don't realize how similar their stories are.

It’s not just because Wesley is in THAT DARK A PLACE. It’s also because these are two characters that have been living out the same challenges and dealing with the same handicaps for the last three years at least. As good as Wesley is and as evil as Lilah is, they fundamentally get each other.

YES. I don't like it when people read their dynamic as Lilah's ~angel of darkness trying to seduce Wes to the dark side. Though they undeniably try to pull each other to their own side in the Good/Evil fight, they connect over their shared degree of ambition, over playing supporting second fiddle for years before actually striking out. The tragedy is that they expected different

[sunclouds33]

Thank you for commenting! I adore Wesley/Lilah- one of my top three ships of the Whedonverse.

Frankly, I think that Lilah pretty much gave up seducing Wesley to W&H by the start of S4. It may have started out as her goal but she was done with it in Deep Down because (a) I think she realized it wasn't going to happen, (b) she actually got a kick out the fact that they're on separate sides and (c) as her life fell apart, she actually started to understand the value of heroism and helping people...at least it pertains to her own skin.

Lilah eventually successfully seduces all of AI to darkness by selling them W&H. However, that's a package deal where Angel is the head. Moreover, not to excuse what Lilah did, but she was more at whims of the Senior Partners and much more past any earthly feelings or potential for growth after she died.

Wesley/Lilah are absolutely the hottest ship on the show.

[sunclouds33]

Wesley = my favorite guy in the Buffyverse.

I get the s1 love for Wes/Angel but really their relationship leaves me cold for all the reasons you stated that make Wes and Buffy's treatment of Angel similar. I actually can't stand that about Buffy and it was my least favorite characteristic of Wesley's. Yeah, I hear ya. Buffy had the benefit of Xander aggressively and the other Scoobies more gently questioning how much risk to others and how much of hero is Angel. Basically, all of AI is a group think tank for Angel (which is like...the opposite of what a *real* think tank should do- LOL

[sunclouds33]

Wow, like you put every ethical dilemma in the 'verse here. LOL

[pocochina]

Both of them- brilliant, ruthless, committed beyond committed workers for their respective sides who are doomed to be the second banana because they don’t fit some “anointed golden boy” standard even they’re the ones who Get Things Done. Being the second banana non-special snowflake in a hardcore war is a dangerous proposition.

OOOOOH. I never thought of this but you're so right.

Lindsey is viewed as particularly he-man cool because he no longer reads/researches while Lilah remains a reader.

W&H got office politics so right with this kind of stuff. There are people who gain status by appearing to coast, and then there are people who have to ~try too hard just to get half the respect.

Really, isn’t *everyone* a sweetheart if stood next to Angel?

ahaha

all types can suckered into adoring Angel at the expense of their physical and mental health.

Yeah, Angel makes my skin crawl in part because he's just that good. I hope I would see through someone like him IRL, but I don't know that for sure.

Basically, I think everyone would

[sunclouds33]

W&H got office politics so right with this kind of stuff. There are people who gain status by appearing to coast, and then there are people who have to ~try too hard just to get half the respect.Yup. Plus, sexism is wrapped up in there. Lindsey was the first golden boy and even Gavin was Linwood's favorite associate even though they weren't as smart or tough as Lilah

[pocochina]

Holland Manners and Linwood were threatened because Lilah's skill-sets are very much chessmaster/leader.

This is very true.

However, I do think that Wes's key differences from Lilah- goodness vs. evil and insecurity vs. confidence- helps Wesley function better as an underling/supplicant for at least the person getting his help and usually others.

Ravenclaw versus Slytherin?

I think my main issue is that a lot of them feel like wishy-washy attacks on either Wesley or Fred or both without having the guts to come out and just rip the characters apart and deal with any arguments that come their way from fans of either character.

Yeah, I do think a lot of the most intense hostility toward the ship comes from viewers slotting the characters into archetypes, rather than Wes doing so to Fred? It's plausible that I assign outsize importance to Supersymmetry, as it's my favorite Fred episode, but like, Wes practically has cartoon heart-eyes at the bad bitch side of Fred (which both Angel and Gunn don't even deign to demonize, they just

[sunclouds33]

Ravenclaw versus Slytherin?Probably. Although, Slytherins can be terrific support people too if they think that being a support person is their gateway to prestige/power/influence. Slytherins en masse sign up to be Death Eaters- which basically a whole job being Voldemort's bitch. Murder and mayhem aside, I'd balk at the whole uniform tattoo that Voldemort chose right away. In fact, a lot of the Death Eaters were loyal to Voldemort even when it looked like he was dead or weakened beyond repair especially ultra-Slytherins Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. Some Slytherins really believe in the pyramid scheme of power and they know that they don't have what it takes to be on top, so they become loyal and committed to the person who does have what it takes to be on top

[duckondebut]

There's nothing that isn't beautiful about the way you've charted out the similarities between Wesley's and Lilah's arcs. As close to a "meant to be" romance as this series ever got, I suppose.

At the crux, I think Buffy and Wesley make Angel into a larger than life symbol of how the war against evil can be won because Angel is such a Shanshu souled vampire Champire special-snowflake. From the minute that they were aware of their destiny, Buffy and Wesley almost ceaselessly gave their all to fighting evil. Both of them look for the fairytale that make it’ll look like all of this fighting is fruitful. Angel as the one freak in the world who knows what Buffy’s going through. Angel as the pivotal figure who may save Team Good and become human for Wesley embodies that fairy tale.

Ohhhh yes YES.

[sunclouds33]

Thank you and thanks for friending me! I see that you've recently written AtS Wes fic that I must read!

There is a "meant to be" vibe to Wesley/Lilah! I think the writers decided from AtS S1 that they wanted to tell a long-con story with a slow burn development about Lilah and Wesley. It's pretty amazing how Wesley and Lilah really had a short romance with few scenes- but the romance felt so incredibly powerful and important because it's a feature of the bigger, more carefully told of their character development. I should roll my eyes at Lilah's "Who knows you better than me?" jibes because Wesley's had more scenes with other characters like Angel or Gunn or Fred- but I don't because Lilah's own character development connects the two even when they're not interacting.

In short, FAVORITES.

[duckondebut]

pocochina directed me here, and I pretty much instantly fell in love with everything you had to say (about Wesley in particular).

I see that you've recently written AtS Wes fic that I must read!

Aw, do let me know what you think! I'm a newb 'round these parts. ;)

[sunclouds33]

Cool! pocochina is at the top of my list of favorite writers in a bunch of fandoms. I'm glad that you liked what I wrote.

I'm excited to start reading your stuff. I think I'll start this evening or sometime tomorrow.