5.17 - "Whore" of Babylon, SPN and misogyny

[su_darklily]

Comments

[sistermagpie]

This is always a grey area on the show, isn't it

Grey - absolutely

[su_darklily]

Oh I knew I was inviting trouble when I tackled the 'whore' line

Re: Grey - absolutely

[sistermagpie]

Thanks! And I am very glad you are writing meta for the show--I really enjoyed it. You are brave to take on this subject as well! ;-)

I do think your thoughts about it make sense--and it is a good thing to discuss. Because it does often come down to the question of imagining someone like Dean, for instance, speaking differently. A lot of the words he uses do make sense for the character. The language is sexist, but it's also common. And just as in the real world, Dean's use of the language doesn't necessarily make him a black hat who doesn't respect women at all. There's plenty of situations where a woman would be far better to be with Dean than with another guy who didn't use that language--and there are plenty of times on the show where we see Dean respecting women as well.

Probably the reason it gets talked about so much is that the show's lack of thought about it probably reflects the lack of thought about it in the real world, if that makes sense.

[eilonwy]

I think the majority of complaints regarding misogyny for this particular episode come not from having the character The Whore of Babylon, which didn't bother me, since she is, as you point out, one of the aspects of Revelation, and to be expected in some ways.

The trouble comes from aggregation. You have a show wherein women are generally victims, or evil, or dead (and most often some combination thereof.) (And I'm with sistermagpie above in not quite seeing why the atrocities in the Congo, and around the world, means this sort of behavior needs to be overdone on the show.) The show then has an episode called "99 Problems" where the popular culture supplies the rest of the phrase to be "and a bitch ain't one." While I've certainly seen "bitch" reclaimed by powerful women (most notably with the magazine of the same name), that's certainly not the use within the original context of the song, and not what an audience is going to think of. Finish that with Dean's line, the biggest problem, to my mind, within the episode, that "some days you

[yourlibrarian]

but this line, even with the context of the character the Whore of Babylon is violent and problematic.

Pretty much. And also, yes, we can't keep taking instances out of the larger context.

But they're traveling around the entire country-- I'd expect them to meet a lot more women and people of color

Particularly given that they shoot this is Vancouver, you wouldn't think it would be that difficult to cast more Asian actors.

[eilonwy]

The number and portrayal of Asian characters within Show is deeply troubling to me. The ones I can think of off the top of my head were restaurant owners in "Wishful Thinking" (Stereotype), the stripper/siren in "Sex and Violence" (fetishized), the recurrent magazine Busty Asian Beauties (fetishized) and the probably south asian character in "Long Distance Call". This is undoubtedly a comment for a different post, in general, but it bears a similarity to my above point that it's about aggregation and context. Any one of those portrayals would probably not raise so much as an eyebrow, but taken together they are, again, a symptom of a larger problem.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, it's the patterns that evolve that demonstrate the problem.

[ext_222551]

I loved your post--it was a refreshing change of pace from the usual meta I run across.

Call me old-fashioned, but I like to reserve claims of misogyny, racism,etc., for things that are actually misogynistic/racist--not every show that doesn't have equal representations of all genders/cultures. Because that would be every freaking show.

[su_darklily]

And yes! That's it

[ext_222551]

Oh, that's an interesting comparison. I've watched SVU off and on over the years (I usually just catch reruns since there really is no arc to follow LOL) and I often get that skeevy vibe from it. But I've never faulted the show for that--in the same way that I don't fault the news for reporting on sex crimes.

I wonder why that is...Maybe I rationalize it by telling myself SVU doesn't make the "news"--they just report it.

[eilonwy]

One could create an even stronger argument that SVU selects and focuses on violence on women in order to titillate rather than to inform (I love this show btw so I have no intention of pulling this). In fact, one way to test the 'fairness' of the criticism of the charge of misogyny is to try the same arguments on SVU and see where that gets you. Try to see if you can get the exact same examples (and really you can, I watch both shows - take out demons and everything else including bitch and whore stays) from both shows then don't condemn SPN without being willing to take on SVU as well.

Yeah, but which characters are saying "bitch" and "whore"-- it's very very rarely the hero. Plus, SVU gets more of a pass since Mariska Hargitay plays one of its main characters.

Also, here's an article you might be interested in on a very similar subject: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/04/07/law-and-order-crime-punishment/

[tabaqui]

Yes. I totally agree with this. Dean isn't a 'misogynist' because he said they got to 'kill a whore' - have we ever seen him, once, disrespect a woman who was a victim, a contact, a friend, a hunter? We haven't. He disrespects the demon inside the women they're wearing, he disrespects the witches who are killing people and the monsters who are doing the same, but he does *not*...disrespect people like Ellen, or Missouri, or Sarah, or hell - even his one night stands. When we saw his 'version' of the story in the bar, the girl he presented to Sam and Bobby? Was a classy, educated woman who wanted to discuss folk lore with him. Even if that's a pipe dream, or him trying to make himself look better - he choose the exact opposite of a 'skanky bar girl' who was drooling all over him.

So, yes. This.
:)

[ext_222551]

Oh, that's an interesting point I've never seen made before.

Dean is constantly traveling, picks up girls at bars sometimes but I don't think he would make them promises about the future**, etc. They all know its a hook-up, it can't be any more than that--that makes him a womanizer/misogynist? I think maybe we aren't giving women enough credit here.

**The only exception I can recall was the one time early on in the series where he said he was a casting director or something? I can't believe those girls didn't see that line coming a mile away.

[tabaqui]

Exactly. I think - those girls probably knew he *wasn't* a casting director, but out at the bar on a Saturday night, or whatever, they all have their little fantasies, you know? Dean's attractive, they're *attracted*, they all tell little fibs. She's not a retail drone, she' a 'buyer', he's not an itinerant hunter, he's a 'casting director'. I think anyone expecting absolute honesty at a bar over Purple Nurples is kidding themselves.

[su_darklily]

Oooh. Thank you tabaqui. That's the point exactly

misogyny

[anonymous]

I agree. I see supernatural from the pilot und I have never understood the accusation of misogyny. The words, Dean uses, don't disturb me. I find Dean in his demenoar always correct und demon are bitches, no matter the gender.