Comments | su_darklily: 5.21 - Two minutes to Midnight : Sam's Choice - determinism and free will as shown in SPN

su_darklily

5.21 - Two minutes to Midnight : Sam's Choice - determinism and free will as shown in SPN

May 10, 2010 01:40

Sidebar 1: re predictions

Unbecoming though it maybe, please excuse this just a tiny bit of gloating - I totally called the Michael taking Adam as a vessel at the end of 5.18! ^^

Yay to me and all the others who also made this guess.

Also note that there was indeed more to using the rings than just collecting them as previously guessed at ( Read more... )

spn meta

Comments 16

monicawoe May 9 2010, 17:40:34 UTC

Interesting meta!
You're definitely right that no matter what the outcome of the finale is, Sam will be back in season 6. As much as I love our Show, this is one reason that the fifth as final season may have worked out better. It certainly would have given this season's finale far more weight.

That being said, I find that I've been pleasantly surprised by every prior season's finale to date. The writers always manage to surprise me in at least one way.

Plus, even if Sam does end up surviving being Lucifer's vessel, he's still going to have to deal with the memories of being inhabited by Lucifer, and won't that make for fantastic angst?
; )

su_darklily May 10 2010, 12:08:44 UTC

"I find that I've been pleasantly surprised by every prior season's finale to date. The writers always manage to surprise me in at least one way." O absolutely. I was pretty flabbergasted when Sam died in AHBL p1 - interestingly Dean making the deal with the crd did not surprise me in the slightest, I saw that one coming ever since Crossroad Blues. Next big surprise was s4 end with Lucifer popping free. Both moments sort of went "omg I can't believe they went there" so it'll be interesting to see what they'll do. Wonder if they'll pop Dean/Lucifer in to the cage instead in a last minute exchange? ^_ ( ... )

etoile444 May 9 2010, 19:51:38 UTC

Hope I don't repeat myself here. Love discussion:

Well, destiny is always in play, and I think Sam is more accepting of fate than Dean, but yes, he does try to rally against it. Except, Sam will always be drawn back into the stream of things because he is, as the chosen vessel, the end all be all.

Which is weird, because there doesn’t seem to have been a counter plan. Michael could have prepped Dean better!

Let’s face it, if God wanted Lucifer dead, he’d be dead. What God wants exactly for his wayward angels, I’m not so sure. I think that this has been a test, perhaps to see if angels can exert free will. I don’t know.

Sam is in constant and extreme conflict with who he is and how he sees himself and how he wants to see himself.

And yes, how he wants others to see him. I also think there is a biological drive that causes some conflict, namely having demon blood in him causes more anger and darkness.

Both brothers sacrificed and would have sacrificed everything for each other but what they were not willing to do was to ( ... )

su_darklily May 10 2010, 13:00:45 UTC

Hi *waves* It's lovely that you popped in because now we can continue on this discussion on my journal ( ... )

etoile444 May 10 2010, 23:28:24 UTC

Yes, the angels haven't learned from humans b/c they are completely arrogant and hate humans. Lucifer just had the nerve to get outspoken and take it a step further...or did he? Maybe when Lucifer threw his bratty fit, Michael over reacted and locked him up. I'm not entirely convinced SPN has made Lucifer the all out evil bad guy that he typical is portrayed as. All the other angels are similar.

And why bring in Jesse, but do nothing with this potential? Unless they wanted to include an anti-Christ, but since it was a child they did not want to kill him, just send him away as a means to dealing with the issue? Confusing.

As for Good Omens, I also loved when any tape Crowley put in the tape deck would only play Queen. Somehow that really made me laugh.

su_darklily May 11 2010, 13:44:18 UTC

My fav Crowley part is the one with the threatening of the plants. That was awesome! I just loved the bit with the empty pot being brought back. And the next fav was the Queen tapes, especially the demonic message corrupting the lyrics. I definitely preferred Crowley to Aziraphale if I had to choose - he had a wicked sense of humor, like the thing with the paint-guns? Brilliant ( ... )

erivar May 10 2010, 02:06:24 UTC

Great meta on Sam. I can honestly say you are one of the few people out there who truly gets Sam Winchester. You are also the first person I've come across who that actually noticed that while Sam betrayed Dean by listening to Ruby, Dean also betrayed Sam way before then by listening to other people(like Castiel) and taking their words over Sams. And i think that is the show's fault You have my respect ( ... )

Go Team Brotherly Love! su_darklily May 10 2010, 13:23:36 UTC

Oh, thank you. *beams* That's really nice to hear after trying to make sense of how Sam has been portrayed/treated/received etc. I just really focused on what I've seen of Sam in the series and only in the series ( ... )

(The comment has been removed)

su_darklily May 10 2010, 13:24:03 UTC

Thank you very kindly ^^ I'm glad you enjoyed.

borgmama1of5 May 10 2010, 03:32:05 UTC

Brilliant analysis of the core difference between Sam and Dean and how this had played out in each season!

su_darklily May 10 2010, 13:30:48 UTC

Thank you for your very kind words.

I'm really glad you liked that bit. I was a bit worried about going through each season like that since I meant to focus mostly on Sam as he was in 5.21. But once I started, I found that I just had to include the discussion on the progression of Sam's characterization and his relationship to Dean from the beginning if I wanted to make sense of where Sam is now.