Comments | stupidcoyote: ¿How Will Structure Help (and if it won't help, what is the answer)?

stupidcoyote

¿How Will Structure Help (and if it won't help, what is the answer)?

Nov 22, 2007 08:40

As long as I can remember as well as stories I have heard right up to the very beginnings of the BPC there have always been strong factions. There have always been groups and individuals who have extremely dissed other groups or individuals. I have always heard people say, I am not going to that ritual because So-and-so is running it. There has ( Read more... )

anaximander, deep thought, snark, nvc, religion, bpc

Comments 15

there are people just being people voltron_nut_13 November 22 2007, 14:26:40 UTC

Unfortunately, in my experiences, there is no solution for this.
Anytime you get more than 1 person you start having arguments. More than 3 and you get cliques. It's the way humans are. There's very little anyone or anything can do. I don't think structure will help. I don't think it would hurt either.

The problem is everyones perceptions. They may not be accurate, but at the same time it's all they have of any one situation. Perceptions shape each person's reality. Percieved hurts are real for that person. Some of us are insensitive jerks. Some of us are oversensitive jerks. (Note, I am saying everyone is a jerk in some way!) I don't think there's anyway to fix this. It's just the way it is.

Silence is not giving permission. Silence is not supporting someone else. Silence is not entering the fight in any way. I supports no one.

Re: there are people just being people stupidcoyote November 24 2007, 17:47:58 UTC

While reading this, a couple of things come to mind:

Trust a Bear to be a Bear
This is the story of a journey where bear is encountered. Upon first seeing bear, images of the big cuddly teddy bear come to mind. Longing for the comforts a fuzzy friend can bring and childhood in general (and with thoughts of Grizzly Adams) the bear is approached with open arms. The bear promptly rips one of those arms off. The first reaction is to be angry with the bear, but in fact the bear is just being true to its nature. The moral of the story being we as humans have a distinct nature (as do we as individuals). Once we learn to accept this and trust our fellow humans to be true to their nature, the perceived emotional pain they are causing us (whether unintentional or NOT) becomes our own responsibility.

Instead our reaction is all too often retaliation for pain caused to us by others not conforming to our desired expectations. Isn’t that basically what Road Rage is?

Perceived hurts are real for that person.I believe this to be a truth. ( ... )

Re: there are people just being people vsper November 24 2007, 20:17:04 UTC

It is primarily our goal to meet a need. In order to meet our needs we often hurt others in the process.

While I believe most of the time it is not a intention or goal to hurt someone, I believe sometimes it is. I think that there are cases where hurting others is fulfilling a need. I will agree it is not a healthy need but people have a lot of unhealthy needs. I like a lot of what NVC has to say but unfortunately not everyone subscribes to it.
Leigh

Re: there are people just being people dulcimergoddess November 25 2007, 04:31:16 UTC

As someone who moderates a message board as part of her job, I definitely agree that some folks have a need to hurt others. Makes themselves feel better to put someone down, I reckon.

NVC is a great ideal, but all ideals need to be tempered somewhat by reality. Otherwise, you get James Tiptree Jr.'s "Your Faces, O My Sisters! Your Faces Filled of Light!" (for all you sci-fi fans out there.... It's a really good short story about what happens when your head's in utopia, and the reality around you isn't.)

Thread 7

dulcimergoddess November 22 2007, 16:20:34 UTC

some thoughts, from someone who's chosen to be an outsider....

groups that work well together need to have some sort of cohesive identity. often, this is based on tradition, with a shared idea of divinity, ritual and purpose. i think that last is especially important. groups where some people come solely to party or pick up prospective lovers, while others come solely to do spiritual work, or coffeeklatch, tend to be divided to their core. i've seen this on the level of groups such as the BPC, and larger festival communities.

it's also why groups such as covens or groves work so well -- everyone has a shared purpose. even event-communities with a shared purpose (say, Stones Rising or Witchcamp) seem to create a better experience. because no matter the personal sniping or behind-the-scenes drama, the reason for being there is paramount, and overrules all else ( ... )

structure...... rob_wandell November 23 2007, 19:35:19 UTC

From a different viewpoint ( ... )

Re: structure...... stupidcoyote November 26 2007, 00:06:16 UTC

I was hoping you might explain some of your ideas a little further for me:

Structure? Chaos, risk taking, blame, and burn out are our problems.

I don’t understand the chaos and risk taking issues. Can you please explain how you see them as a problem for the BPC?

I'd certainly vote for a little more structure, a democracy, instead of rule controlled by the most disgusted.

I understand your idea of “the rule of the most disgusted”, but I don’t see it as an active “ruling” structure. Can you please explain how you see pertinent BPC decisions being made using this structure?

Regarding a more democratic structure: What would it look like? How do you see this democracy working better then the current structure (I have outlined some of how I see our structures in my response to illious below? What would be some things we can do to move the BPC in these directions?

Re: structure...... rob_wandell November 27 2007, 21:28:02 UTC

Chaos? Some in the BPC take pride in that we have no rules or structure. Risk taking? Well, since we have no authority, our structure for decision making is this: An individual (or group) thinks a new idea would be good. If motivated enough, they'll actually follow through and do it. Risk? After the decision is enacted, since we didn't all vote for it, we feel free to criticize, constructively or destructively, and blame those that did the thing for any unhappiness we have about the thing being done. Sometimes, it goes right under the radar. Other times, people stir the pot, up the drama, and throw stones. examples ( ... )

Thread 6

(The comment has been removed)

stupidcoyote November 25 2007, 23:18:12 UTC

Here are my thoughts on what is already in place in the BPC.

… a code of ethics…

Our current code of ethics is the Federal, State, and local laws as well as the ideologies that come with being an American, a New Yorker, and a Binghamtonian.

What additions do you think should be added to this?

… a more consistent way of bringing people into community…

This is one of my soapboxes, and I like to bring it out and get up on it every once in awhile. I think things have gotten better, but there are still a lot of different ideas and new variations are constantly being introduced.

One idea I just thought of is to have the person volunteering to maintain the postal mailing list to send an accepted “Moon Manners” document (the one we have is mostly accepted I think) to anyone they add to the list.

What do you think of this idea? Can you think of any others?

… a way to deal with grievances… & … removing [people] from community if neededAs I see it, we deal with these by “popular opinion”. When someone does something which affects the ( ... )

libwitch November 26 2007, 14:03:44 UTC

Darrin, if we HAD a code of ethos for what it meant to be a new yorker, or an American, or a Bingo (and mind you, not everyone from the community lives or is from any or all of those three areas) the all three of those areas would not be in the state of change and disarray they are in now! Ask anyone from these areas, and you will get different answers as to what it means ( ... )