(Meta) Thoughts on a certain scene in 'Who Are You?'

[stormwreath]

I'm sure you all remember the scene in 'Who Are You?' where Faith, in Buffy's body, goes to bed with Riley. So here's a question: was that rape?

Poll That Riley/Faith scene

Under the cut, I'll expand in a little more detail on each of the options.

Comments

[woman_of_]

I'm inclined to got with them both being rapists to be honest. They both used Buffy's body for an act Buffy's mind didn't consent to, by way of her not being in control. Even if in Riley's case he was unaware. You take your victim as you find them, even if you do not have the full information. Such as if you hit someone and they fall and die, finding out later they had a weakend skull is no excuse.

But willing to listen to counter claims

[stormwreath]

I'd be inclined to let Riley off any crime - you can't rape someone, or murder them or rob them by accident - you have to know that what you're doing is wrong, or at least be completely reckless about it.

In your example, if you hit someone you're still trying to hurt them, so you're responsible for their injury even if it's more serious than you expected. But if you just waved your arms around, and didn't see the other person coming up behind you until it was too late, that wouldn't be a crime. (Their family might still sue you for being careless, but I don't think the police would arrest you.)

[novin_ha]

I think that even if Buffy was raped we cannot say that Riley was a rapist, because to his knowledge he was having sex with his willing girlfriend...

[stormwreath]

Which leads us to the interesting question: can a crime take place if there is no criminal committing it?

[mrteufel]

Faith raped both Buffy and Riley, IMNSHO. She used Buffy's body for sex without Buffy's consent. She used Riley for sex obtaining consent by deception.

She's really a very naughty girl.

[menomegirl]

This. Very good observation. You put that much better than I could have and thus, saved me from ranting. Thank you.

[elisi]

This is very tricky, but I can't really see it in that light. This is one point where Riley really shines, and any of Buffy's other partners would have made everything far worse. From Spring Summer's analysis:

What happens when Faith encounters Riley? Faith, as Buffy, tries to take control of the sexual encounter with Riley. But he isn’t vulnerable to her kinky come-ons. He loves Buffy, and he takes a simple, honest, loving - and irresistible - approach to dealing with “Buffy’s” unappealing suggestions. There are no ultimatums, no games. Riley simply knows what he wants. He has self-respect, and standards. He’s interested in sex with Buffy, but not so desperate or needy that he’s willing to do things her way because he’s afraid she’ll say no otherwise

[stormwreath]

Personally, I don't blame Riley at all. (And I agree with the passage you quoted.) It's more that it suddenly struck me that what he does to Buffy's body here is identical to what a lot of Dollhouse clients are doing to Caroline's body, and yet 'Who Are You?' never generated half the controversy that 'Dollhouse' does.

[elisi]

what he does to Buffy's body here is identical to what a lot of Dollhouse clients are doing to Caroline's body, and yet 'Who Are You?' never generated half the controversy that 'Dollhouse' does.
Well he clueless and not a paying customer...

Faith's crime is much worse, but to quote Spring Summers again:

And though her words to Riley are, on the surface about going into the church alone, they also point out the fact that she has realized that she “can’t use” Riley. He’s not like all the men she’s used before. And amazingly, his love for Buffy and his confident, kind, patient nature are what protect Riley from being used. What a revelation for Faith, who has always protected herself by not caring and by using her fists.

The main victim here is Buffy, as Faith of course intended... ETA: I'm with frenchani - if there's rape involved, then Faith raped Buffy.

[frenchani]

It is not identitical. There's a big difference. Riley wasn't aware of having sex with Buffy's body without Buffy "being in the driver seat" while the Dollhouse clients know that Caroline's mind is not in her body, they even pay to use that body. Of course they can make themselves believe that the person has consented to be used when they sign in to become Actives.

Even Paul Ballard who didn't pay to use November, knows that Mellie's body is a doll.

On the other hand...Isn't Mellie a real person at the end of the day? She does have feelings, she believes that this body is hers. Paul is in a very difficult position.

[frenchani]

You know when I read option# 2, I didn't think of Riley at all, I thought you meant that Faith raped Buffy!

But you obviously didn't. Yet I think it's my choice.

After all Faith forced sex on Buffy's body without Buffy's consent, and she found her own pleasure through that violation. Faith is a rapist.

Of course Buffy didn't see it, didn't feel it when it happened. She didn't even know it was happening at the time. So on the one hand I wonder whether anyone could be raped when they aren't aware of it.

On the other hand, rape implies a psycholigical violence and Buffy found out afterwards that her body has been used by Faith for sex against her will, so she might have been feeling some rape-trauma still.

Anyway Riley is not guilty here.

[stormwreath]

Actually, I was going to mention that option in the discussion, and forgot... though I wouldn't say Faith raped Buffy herself, more that she procured and abetted her rape. (If that's what it was.)

I wonder whether anyone could be raped when they aren't aware of it.

Objectively, the answer is "yes", because having sex with a sleeping or unconsious person counts as rape (at least it does here). I do think it's an interesting philosophical question, though; like I said, is something still a crime if it has no harmful effects on anybody?

Buffy is only upset because she was told what happened, not by the event itself - it's the information that hurts her, not the event itself. And information is just words. What if someone said to you "While you were asleep last night, I had sex with you"... but they were lying? They never actually touched you. Would that be rape? It would have identical effects on you to the actual crime, after all...

[frenchani]

though I wouldn't say Faith raped Buffy herself, more that she procured and abetted her rape. (If that's what it was.)

But she was part of the action! She enjoyed it. I think it's more than just helping a rape to occur.

Buffy didn't use her own body to commit the crime, she used Buffy's body and Riley. The weird thing here is that the rapist shared the same body as the one being raped, and needed someone else to perform the rape. In a way Faith used Riley as an abetter in spite of himself, hurting two people with the knowledge of what had happened. Riley is a victim, he was certainly upset and angry but I don't think he is a rape victim.

it's the information that hurts her, not the event itself. And information is just words. What if someone said to you "While you were asleep last night, I had sex with you"... but they were lying? They never actually touched you. Would that be rape? It would have identical effects on you to the actual crime, after all...But words and thoughts are everything

[frenchani]

OOps! Buffy didn't use her own body to commit the crime, she used Buffy's body and Riley. Should read "Faith didn't use her own body to commit the crime" of course!

As for me I should stop commenting before it becomes too surrealistic and I make more and more English mistakes to my great shame!

[joe_sweden]

I went with "something else I'll explain in my comments". I think it's very tricky to apply real life moral judgements to mystical events, because you're always working with imperfect analogues.

But given that, I think Riley did nothing wrong - as Buffy said, you don't look at someone and say that's not your body, get out of that body with your hands up. Even though he comes across unnatural things, he's not the sort of person to watch out for mystical events like that.

What Faith did is too complex and twisty to really call it rape - it wasn't a brutal act that took away someone's will. It was a deception that involved sex. Perhaps more like Willow's "mindrape" of Tara, which has rape-y overtones, but isn't morally equivalent, because the way you're taking away someone's choices is so...well, mindfucky :)

[2maggie2]

But Willow used the 'mind rape' of Tara to actually rape rape her didn't she? They were going to bed mad. Willow does the spell. Tara is singing about being spread beneath her Willow tree while she's under Willow's spell. If date rape drugs result in acts we would call rape, then Willow raped Tara.

But to the subject at hand -- agree that Riley did nothing wrong. Though if I were Buffy I might have a hard time getting over the fact that my boyfriend could have the most intimate knowledge of "me" and not notice that it wasn't me.

Agree that what Faith did to Riley is too twisty and complex to call rape. But she did do something very close to rape to Buffy (whose body has had sex without her consent).

[stormwreath]

My understanding (from reading Wikipedia) is that date rape drugs render the victim unconscious or paralysed, so they can't resist. It's effectively a chemical equivalent of using force to hold someone down. What Willow did to Tara was nothing like that - she simply withheld important information from her, using magical memory editing rather than something more mundane like lying to her. Tara still had full mental capacity to give her consent.

Which isn't to excuse Willow or say that what she did wasn't morally reprehensible. But to my mind, her offence was the magical equivalent of deceiving her partner - on a serious issue and over an extended period of time - not of raping her.

[gabrielleabelle]

What Willow did to Tara was nothing like that - she simply withheld important information from her, using magical memory editing rather than something more mundane like lying to her. Tara still had full mental capacity to give her consent.

No, she didn't. Willow erased a memory from Tara that might have meant Tara had taken away that consent (They had been fighting). That's willfully taking away Tara's ability to consent on Willow's part.

Sorry, but you can't compare an intrusive wiping of the mind to a mere deception. Willow "withheld" important information about a fight they had had. By outright erasing a memory from Tara, Willow compromises her ability to consent.

Before the spell:

"Tara's mad at me about something dumb. No nookie for me tonight...unless..."

After the spell:

"Yes! She doesn't remember a thing. No fighting and now we can have kinky lesbian sex!"