Muslim Europe?

[sprite6]

According to an opinion piece I read last night, Islam is expanding in Europe not only by a high birthrate among Muslims, but also by conversion. The implication is that one day Muslims will be in the majority and the idea of Europe as "Christendom" will go the way of the Roman empire. I think this is an alarmist view-it seems unlikely Islam will

Comments

[apey1013]

Christians are conservative enough, we don't need overrun by muslims. And, yes, our country is a Judeo-Christian society. I'm not Christian and even I can say that comfortably. I like living in a place where you can be a loose and free hippie or an ultraconservative if you so choose. I also like that we allow logic into the fold instead of just religion *glares at Bush*. But then, I'm from Rhode Island, the first state to have separation of church and state and I FIRMLY believe in that principle and the thing is, most muslim countries don't.

That being said, this is totally alarmist. It reminds me of my grandma freaking out that the Mexicans are taking over America and one day we will all have to speak Spanish. Psh. Whatever.

[sprite6]

I'm from Rhode Island, the first state to have separation of church and state and I FIRMLY believe in that principle and the thing is, most muslim countries don't.

I think we sometimes forget how radical separation of church and state actually is. Most countries have had state religions, which usually justify the sovereignty of the governement. I think the separation that exists in our country goes hand in hand with the idea that sovereignty comes from the people. Of course, that does mean if the majority of people hold a certain belief system and vote to have liquor stores closed on Sundays, there's not much you can do about it.

[apey1013]

So it is. That's supposed to be the whole idea with a democracy, to have the people make the decisions rather than some self-appointed dictator or pontiff or something.

[sigune]

I'm a European, so this hits close to home... It's not as if Europeans are converting en masse, and I have to say I'm not at all aware of this going on except for a few exceptions. The fact of the matter is that Europe grows more and more secular, and I doubt that if people fall away from their Christian churches, they're going to embrace an even stricter religion like Islam. On the other hand, I do think there must come some kind of turnaround some day, simply because we can't become more secular than this

[sprite6]

The fact of the matter is that Europe grows more and more secular, and I doubt that if people fall away from their Christian churches, they're going to embrace an even stricter religion like Islam.

That makes sense, and it's why I find it hard to picture this scenario. But people may change their behavior without converting. The author mentions two women he knows in London and Amsterdam who've started going out in public "covered" because they feel safer that way, sure that they won't be harassed.

I think the more direct problem is for Christians and Muslims to get along with each other. In my hometown we have a large Turkish community, and things are just fine between us. It becomes more difficult with Muslims from other countries, who keep very much to themselves and become almost more conservative than the people in their homelands. That's such a shame. I know people sometimes stay apart to keep their culture strong, but then it also tends to ossify. OTOH, if the Turkish group is a strong part of your community, it's not a

[aerynalexander]

I fear all restrictive religions equally. And given that European Christianity is less fundamentalist and oppressive than I think European Islam would be, I cannot imagine this shift being a good thing. All I care about is freedom and civil rights.

[atlantel]

night, Islam is expanding in Europe not only by a high birthrate among Muslims, but also by conversion. The implication is that one day Muslims will be in the majority and the idea of Europe as "Christendom" will go the way of the Roman empire. I think this is an alarmist view-it seems unlikely Islam will dominate Europe in the near future when it took centuries for Christianity to do so-but it's a view I've heard before when people have discussed the demographic shifts in Western European populations, and I'm not sure what to think about it.It's really alarmist. Even if Islam is the 2nd religion of France now, Catholicism is still the first one (around 60/70

[_redux]

So the most important idea is that people need to accept each other and being tolerent and to talk, just to break some taboos.
Hear, hear!

[sprite6]

I think the main problem about Islam is that this is a religion that still needs to do its 'reformation' like the other main religion did in the past.

That's a really good point. But reform has to come from within, and right now I think Muslims feel so embattled, it's unlikely to happen soon. We think of the Prostestant Reformation as a great revolution against the Catholic Church - which it was. But it was a revolution within Christianity sparked by Christians. It's not like Buddhists were criticizing the Church from without.

That may seem irrelevant, but people do tend to unite when they feel attacked. There was a discussion among Muslim thinkers in Egypt during the 19th century over whether women really need to cover their heads. It's possible many would have declared the practice unnecessary - if the British ambassador at the time hadn't declared it to be backward. Suddenly everybody lined up to defend the custom, and the chance of reform was strangled.

[_redux]

And if Christianity no longer works for the majority of Europeans, the spiritually inclined must find other religions that do.
And exactly why would they turn to islam...? If a person is spiritually inclined and against the Christian church, why would they seek out a religion that is, deep down, so similar? Doesn't make sense to me at all.
From what I've seen, the "hip" religion among young people is Buddhism, and there are also a smaller number who claims to be pagans and wicca. These later go back to their christian beliefs, or become atheists/agnostics.

So yeah, this is cultural elitism. The overwhelming majority of Europeans are way too liberal to embrace a religion that is as restrictive as Islam. But in the end, beliefs and cultures are constantly shifting, and who can tell anyone else what to believe? Freedom of religion is a basic human right and a cornerstone in every democratic society.
I can of course only speak for Scandinavia.

[sprite6]

And exactly why would they turn to islam...? If a person is spiritually inclined and against the Christian church, why would they seek out a religion that is, deep down, so similar?

Beats me. But I wouldn't say the religions are so similar. Christian theology seems unnecessarily convoluted to many people, what with the Trinity, the concept of original sin, the resurrection - all of which exist to explain how a savior god could be summarily executed by Rome. By comparison, Islam may seem more straightforward. I understand that was a major part of its appeal when it first spread across the Middle East.