[ROTT SPOILERS] Volume 2, Chapter 3

[whataliethatwas]

I have finished Return of the Thief, and really need to process this section from V2Ch3.  I was commenting on the main book discussion thread and realized my question was rapidly becoming too unwieldy for a simple discussion and decided to post as a separate thread.  I have tried this multiple times and haven't been able to get a single cut to work

Comments

[ninedaysaqueen]

I just reread that scene, and I don't see anything about Helen making a proposal. Am I missing something? The Real Sounis's proposal was when he was trying to blackmail Helen into marrying him

[whataliethatwas]

I lost my first post and had to rewrite and recopy a handful of times so there was definitely a loss of clarity in repetition, sorry. I did mean the threat/proposal Sounis the original sent to Helen.

I really like your take and insight, thanks!

[puppeteergirl]

Okay, more evidence for the rumors, at least part of them.

In the short story "Eddis", it says that her three brothers die in a matter of days of an illness. So we know she had three brothers (at least).

In the short story "Thief!", it says that “The king was ill and both his sons had died.”

Both HIS sons. So...was one of Helen's brothers a half-brother?

[whataliethatwas]

Ooh wow. It's possible one had died previous to this, but that is a really interesting catch. Wow.

[checkers65477]

It was a confusing scene to me, too. Here's what I thought. Sounis (before the time period of TT) tried to get Helen to marry him by threatening to give the stone to Gen, sending Eddis into chaos and maybe civil war. It was the Magus's idea ("they both knew the mastermind of his uncle's plan.") Sounis knew enough citizens of Eddis didn't feel a woman should rule that she couldn't be certain of her holding onto the throne if that happened. Plus, everyone knew that the Thief was not supposed to rule; that was totally against the rules of generations of Eddisians. The magus didn't know Gen back then and didn't think he'd pass the stone along to Helen

[freenarnian]

This passage only gets more confusing to me the more times I read it, which maybe says something about the vicious and damaging nature of rumors.

[whataliethatwas]

Truth. It helps me a little that even if the specifics are deliberately vague and rumor-like, the essentials are understandable - Sounis is a jerk who thought he could undermine Helen's throne (magus and Sounis had different motivations for the same actions), Gen's relationship with his big family was complicated by more than just cousin/jocks bullying, and Helen is a treasure (gifted leader, calm and totally someone not to mess with, etc.).

[whataliethatwas]

Tyvm. I really appreciate your insight and it definitely helped me sort through my thoughts and clarify things. I have a hard time seeing the magus planning to offer the stone just to stir up family trouble etc. but I can definitely see him playing on the superstitions of the Eddisians to weaken Helen's position so that her option was to marry Sounis or lose her throne because she rejected the gift of the stone, or lose her country to chaos with the stone being given to a younger teen not trained to be king. The Magus's goal was unification through any means - marriage or Sounis controlling/annexing the throne

[brandy_painter]

I definitely think the textual argument is there for it being Gen and a younger brother of Helen that this is referencing. I noticed on my reread that when Gen is talking to Susa and refuses to answer to Your Majesty, he says he can use bastard because that's a favorite of his cousins. Nahusheresh uses it to taunt him as well when he's telling Gen he has no right to be king. Then Gen specifically repeats it and looks at Helen when he does upon his return. But he was being fully possessed by god Eugenides at that point. Although god Eugenides was DEFINITELY a bastard soooo....I only just realized that as I was typing this. Huh

[drollittle]

It’s an interesting way to try to turn the tables of the story yet again, but I’m having trouble swallowing it. Would Sounis really have wanted to give the stone to some Eddisian kid when he could use it for himself? If the Magus knew so much about the Thief and the Eddisian’s feelings toward him, it seems like he ought to have recognized Gen for who he was more easily.

I could probably talk myself into believing this; you guys made some plausible explanations; but my initial reaction was heavily doubtful.

[puppeteergirl]

There is a bit of inconsistency for sure. Sounis is pretty clear that he thinks the gift should have been Sounis's, especially if you re-read the short story "Destruction". I'm guessing it was always an empty threat, but it possibly did its job well enough to get the council to vote to have Gen killed to prevent Gen from trying to claim the throne and be a puppet of Sounis.