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[solitary_summer]

I remember how back in 2009 I thought writing about CoE was hard, but in some respects MD makes it even more difficult. CoE was a different kind of struggle, trying to put into words thoughts and feelings about a show that more or less knocked me over and wrung me out emotionally. MD never haunted me like that, but, somehow, is sitting at the back

Comments

[elisi]

These details simply aren't important any longer, because Jack now transcends these particular circumstances, this particular timeline. He's been moving from one life to another for thousands of years, and will go on doing it forever, as far as he knows. He's out of time no longer in the sense of being out of his personal timeline, but it's become a permanent, symbolic state of being, the essence of who and what he is. His struggle has become something eternal and timeless, changing in the details, but repeating itself over and over again.
This is a very good description of why I felt completely disconnected from him. And it's interesting that just when Moffat has thoroughly destroyed The Lonely God, RTD has created a new one.

(I am trying SO HARD not to be negative./o\ And I will certainly read whatever meta you come up with, since I really need something to ameliorate MD - very glad that it's making you think.)

[solitary_summer]

And it's interesting that just when Moffat has thoroughly destroyed The Lonely God, RTD has created a new one.

I'm not so sure about that. I'll have to think this through some more, but from where I'm standing now, MD actually takes Jack's immortality and the whole myth surrounding it down a couple of notches. I think. It's all still pretty vague in my head, sorry...

[elisi]

I'm here for whenever you get stuff de-tangled. I know just how you feel. :)

ETA: What I mean... the Doctor is now, once more, firmly tied to the world (which he hasn't been since the loss of Gallifrey). He has a wife and family, and he's been shown to be very mortal and fallible indeed - he can't run from death.

Whereas Jack has lost every tie to the world, and does live outside of time, untouched by it and unchanging. He doesn't have to run, because he can't die...

[solitary_summer]

It'll be a while before I'll sort this all out and write it down...

I think with Jack the more important point is that he's finally stopped running from life, after mortality and the Blessing showed him it wasn't all that bad. And then he still chose to sacrifice himself even though he thought it would be the end, and he was given his life back. It's all conjecture of course, but he might appreciate this chance to finally start living it a little more consciously, enjoying it instead of seeing it as a curse. I think MD puts things in proportion a bit. Jack's life isn't perfect, but neither is Gwen's, Rex's, or the lives of all the people who died young, Ianto, Vera, Esther. Alice, or Steven, whose life was cut brutally short, and who didn't have a choice at all. Angelo wasted the best part of his life chasing after immortality, only to realise in the end that he didn't want to live forever like that. The important thing isn't how long you live, it's what you do with your life. I do think Jack finally got that message. I know this

[solitary_summer]

Dollhouse lost me somewhere in the middle of the S2 for various reasons, but it did feel a bit like that; ambitious and definitely interesting on an intellectual level, didn't quite work as a story...

[neifile7]

As usual, this is extraordinarily well-articulated and insightful. I was hoping we'd get some meaty MD meta from you. :)

I agree, in particular, about what you have to say about concept- vs. character-driven writing and its impact on this series. Whatever issues I had with the first three seasons of TW, weak character development was not on the list. I share your frustration (if that's a fair assessment) with how awesome Gwen is in this season and how her arc is allowed at the end to become another Big Idea juggled in with all the rest

[solitary_summer]

Thank you!

I share your frustration (if that's a fair assessment) with how awesome Gwen is in this season and how her arc is allowed at the end to become another Big Idea juggled in with all the rest.

I'm not sure I'd call it frustration as such... On one level, I really like that scene, Gwen's speech, her making this decision and shooting Jack. But as you say, there's maybe a bit too much 'Big Idea' in there. As a scene, it's a powerful one; as far as characterisation is concerned, I preferred the Gwen in the car with Jack.

Jack's story, finished? Perhaps. I concur that for the first time it's possible to imagine a TW without him. But I do want him to come back to DW, at least for a 50th-anniversary appearance. I don't want him to drop completely out of TW/DW canon either, but unlike after CoE, I wouldn't mind if that was the end. It feels... not 'finished' in the sense that there's nothing more to say, but... 'peaceful' is maybe a stupid word, but it's the one that comes to mind. There isn't any longer that persistent (and

[topaz_eyes]

There's so much to chew on here! I was able to watch every episode at least twice when they aired, and yeah, they made more sense on the second airing.

MD and the confrontation with himself it allowed him gave Jack as much closure as he'll ever get, and at the end of my rewatch I was thinking that while I would watch a fifth season, Jack's story feels finished to me.

Yes, I agree, MD is very much the end of Jack's story. As I've already mentioned to elisi, Jack's conflict throughout the whole series was that at some level, he never could accept his immortality, and that fed into his loneliness. It's like the difference between "alone" and "lonely". One can be alone and not feel lonely, and conversely, one can feel lonely while not being alone. The former means a state of acceptance, while the latter descends into the madness of the Lonely God that Ten became, and where Jack could have headed after CoE

[solitary_summer]

It's like the difference between "alone" and "lonely". One can be alone and not feel lonely, and conversely, one can feel lonely while not being alone. The former means a state of acceptance, while the latter descends into the madness of the Lonely God that Ten became, and where Jack could have headed after CoE.

I really like this distinction. And you're absolutely right, Jack's struggle was always about accepting himself. MD is a fitting end to his arc and I'm incredibly grateful he got this moment of introspection, which I thought was necessary after CoE, but never expected to become such a major plot-point. Whatever RTD's faults may be, his instincts are usually good when it comes to characterisation.

IMHO, Jack's epiphany that yes, he didn't want to die, marked the turning point in MD, where he finally begins to accept his lot. He must have known that reversing the Miracle would also reinstate his immortality, so his willingness to do so meant he'd found peace, and subsequently he could move on. It wasn't just that he had to

[tigercheetah]

""I think maybe in the end it comes down to the fact that MD is a very, very concept driven show, in a way that reminded me a little of Dollhouse, to the detriment of the organic development of both the characters and the story telling. It's not that it became generic American sci-fi, it's that in many ways it's too abstract. I've never had such a hard time connecting to characters written by RTD, and while I did end up liking the Americans, especially Esther, it's not even remotely comparable to how I reacted to Rose, or Martha, or Donna, or Gwen, or, or, or. The list goes one. Usually I tend to fall in love with them within about five minutes. I never had to rewatch a show of his to come to the conclusion that I've actually become quite fond of the characters after all

[solitary_summer]

Thank you. :)

I also had issues with the americanisation, but somehow it was easier to look past that the second time round... And strangely enough, while I didn't have much of a reaction to Esther's death when I originally watched MD, this time the funeral scene did choke me up a bit.

[tigercheetah]

I felt sorry for Esther at the actual moment of her death but it was her funeral that left me a bit cold - and strangely to me, it felt like Jack and Gwen weren't all that sad either, as if they'd done this 'one too many times' and were just going through the motions. Of course, Jack and Gwen didn't get to know Esther as well as the 3 people they'd lost just a year or so earlier, so...

[solitary_summer]

I don't think it's that they'd done this one time too many as much as that they all, including Esther, had actively fought to reverse the miracle and bring back death. There's sadness, but also a sense of relief, of things being back to normal, of achievement, and I think the scene is deliberately shot to convey that.