I'm curious what your perspective is on the expressions of social rules in the SF-lit world, which is so different from the rules I use on the internet. I've always been a little fringey in SF-lit -- slow, shy, disinclined to blogs -- but the recent unpleasantness has been interesting to me in indicating how powerful status and hierarchy are in the SF-lit world.
(Media-fandom, my "home base," uses community policing via shame and shunning, and has no formalized hierarchy at all -- only what you can garner through fame and persuasiveness.)
Is it inevitable that, money being involved in SF-lit, caste will be involved as well? The SFWA list (which I'm sure has other purposes too) is in this case becoming literally the accusation that fanfic people throw at each other all the time: a private gathering-place where the important show their true colors, excluding the unimportant. How can the community police itself when the accusations of eliteness are actually true? I haven't figured that out yet.
SFWA is trivially simple to join actually. One sale of one short story to any one of a dozen or more magazines or any one of a few dozen anthologies published every year will get you in. Two more sales, and you get to vote.
Having a private section is a) inevitable anyway (if you're heavily involved in fanfiction, are you obligated to reveal the content of email to fellow fans) and, b) a positive good, as SFWA is a writers' organization, which means that some of the conversation is better had away from editors and publishers out to exploit writers.
Anyway, the idea that there is no such thing as a private communication, or shouldn't be, because of one's vocation, is at best very silly.
Don't believe me? Post the most recent 500 personal emails you have received? What, don't I rate a gander?
There is private communication in media fandom, but generally speaking it is individual email and very small lists of personal contacts, for the same reasons that SFWA private lists are being attacked. In fanfic, it is called the "Bitter Old Fanfic Queen Cabal" -- any flaunted sign of private communication, like a private list, is automatically taken to be a conspiracy.
We're refreshingly crazy that way.
I guess the situation I am used to, because it has no professional aspect and no real-world consequences (i.e. money), is a pure internet- and personality-driven situation. Although, as you can see, I'm not so deluded as to think that media-fandom is all Mental Health and Joy (see also: sockpuppets), one of the aspects I do like about it is that it's got its own built-in sense of egalitarian mockery and public process.
Yes. But, we didn't arrive at the point of being able to demand that without intermediary steps. There first had to be women who demonstrated as individuals that they deserved respect and would not surrender their dignity in the face of abuse.
What makes you think this is so? Collective endeavor is the essential element of social change, not individual foot-stomping. Don't believe the TV/movie hype - things don't change because random individuals get fed up and decide that they're not gonna take it. They forms groups, to commiserate and then make plans. Some are informal, some are quite formal. As far as women's groups or feminist groups, there have been collective endeavors in the US since at least 1874 (the Woman's Christian Temperance Union). There's no particular reason why your theory of aggrieved individuals need be true, and certanly no need for it to recapitulate at every site of social struggle.
What I was trying to say was that there are individuals who consider themselves self-reliant and prefer to handle situations like this on their own terms. But upon reflection I think you're right that this is more of an adjacent phenomenon to actual movement towards social change.
Well, boo-hoo for them. It's not like anyone is starting the Protect Connie's Boob Foundation, or otherwise turning her into a poster woman for some social movement against her will. It just happened to be very public; one is reminded of how the Anita Hill testimony led to many organizations (businesses, foundations) etc. to consider sexual harrassment policies. They weren't "Anita Hill Policies" and nearly 16 years later, a whole set of people have been through school and are now entering the workforce and receiving warning about harassment without any reference to Hill.
Yes. I'm not saying everyone should have stayed quiet. I just wanted to acknowledge that I was a little uncomfortable with how Connie was so quickly pushed into the background by everyone's rush to defend her.
It's possible I'm oversensitive. It wouldn't be the first time.
There first had to be women who demonstrated as individuals that they deserved respect and would not surrender their dignity in the face of abuse. They did this on their own, against a prevailing point of view (even in other women) which figured they got what they deserved.
Nick said this better, but my reaction to this was: Hasn't it already been demonstrated that women deserve respect? Even by women, as individuals, standing and saying something? And I guess I wonder why it would have to happen again in the SF field before it's okay to have a wider conversation about these issues. I don't think there's a big enough difference between the SF field and that nebulous "rest of the world" that it would need to be proven again.
And, actually, reading some people's blog posts about their experiences at cons, some people have directly addressed gropes and grabs, but that doesn't mean the behavior has stopped (I'm thinking in particular here of the woman who grabbed Harlan's shoulder and shook him when he was acting inapropriately toward
( ... )
I guess I wonder why it would have to happen again in the SF field before it's okay to have a wider conversation about these issues.
I don't think anybody's saying it wasn't OK to have this conversation before. I'm not, at least. People tend to be reactive (not to say reactionary), and I think there's sort of a perfect storm of factors here--the public nature of the act, the participants, the video documentation, and the Internet holding it all together and the blogosphere re-iterating it all over the place.
And the thing about social change, and beliefs about acceptable actions in public (or private) spaces, is that it may start with individuals, but it has to end with community.
I agree. But I think that something like bellwether_talk has more chance of doing something with this than SFWA does.
I think perfect storm is a great way to describe this - though I think it's also what tends to happen in terms of events of social change, whether in large or small groups. There's a slow build on the side pushing for change, and then something finally comes in and ignites everyone. Which does leave the poor folks on the other side sort of flabbergasted, because they were just responding to events like they have in the past, and here's this radically different result staring them in the face
( ... )
Not because "SFWA" isn't saying anything, but because its members aren't saying anything. No one's obligated to make a stand for anything. But it's depressing when people who could be addressing the issue, people who are in a position of status, are saying nothing, and privately dismissing the behavior. If they were dismissing it somewhere public, then at least there could be conversation about differing points of view, but to remain silent publicly and privately dismiss... is just depressing. Because that's the behavior that enables the status quo to continue. I read comments such as this and wonder what world the poster is living in, that is such an alternative reality from my own, where almost every member of SFWA has been discussing little else than this incident, publicly and privately, all over the internet
( ... )
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(Media-fandom, my "home base," uses community policing via shame and shunning, and has no formalized hierarchy at all -- only what you can garner through fame and persuasiveness.)
Is it inevitable that, money being involved in SF-lit, caste will be involved as well? The SFWA list (which I'm sure has other purposes too) is in this case becoming literally the accusation that fanfic people throw at each other all the time: a private gathering-place where the important show their true colors, excluding the unimportant. How can the community police itself when the accusations of eliteness are actually true? I haven't figured that out yet.
Reply
Having a private section is a) inevitable anyway (if you're heavily involved in fanfiction, are you obligated to reveal the content of email to fellow fans) and, b) a positive good, as SFWA is a writers' organization, which means that some of the conversation is better had away from editors and publishers out to exploit writers.
Anyway, the idea that there is no such thing as a private communication, or shouldn't be, because of one's vocation, is at best very silly.
Don't believe me? Post the most recent 500 personal emails you have received? What, don't I rate a gander?
Reply
We're refreshingly crazy that way.
I guess the situation I am used to, because it has no professional aspect and no real-world consequences (i.e. money), is a pure internet- and personality-driven situation. Although, as you can see, I'm not so deluded as to think that media-fandom is all Mental Health and Joy (see also: sockpuppets), one of the aspects I do like about it is that it's got its own built-in sense of egalitarian mockery and public process.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
What makes you think this is so? Collective endeavor is the essential element of social change, not individual foot-stomping. Don't believe the TV/movie hype - things don't change because random individuals get fed up and decide that they're not gonna take it. They forms groups, to commiserate and then make plans. Some are informal, some are quite formal. As far as women's groups or feminist groups, there have been collective endeavors in the US since at least 1874 (the Woman's Christian Temperance Union). There's no particular reason why your theory of aggrieved individuals need be true, and certanly no need for it to recapitulate at every site of social struggle.
Reply
What I was trying to say was that there are individuals who consider themselves self-reliant and prefer to handle situations like this on their own terms. But upon reflection I think you're right that this is more of an adjacent phenomenon to actual movement towards social change.
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It's possible I'm oversensitive. It wouldn't be the first time.
Reply
Nick said this better, but my reaction to this was: Hasn't it already been demonstrated that women deserve respect? Even by women, as individuals, standing and saying something? And I guess I wonder why it would have to happen again in the SF field before it's okay to have a wider conversation about these issues. I don't think there's a big enough difference between the SF field and that nebulous "rest of the world" that it would need to be proven again.
And, actually, reading some people's blog posts about their experiences at cons, some people have directly addressed gropes and grabs, but that doesn't mean the behavior has stopped (I'm thinking in particular here of the woman who grabbed Harlan's shoulder and shook him when he was acting inapropriately toward ( ... )
Reply
I don't think anybody's saying it wasn't OK to have this conversation before. I'm not, at least. People tend to be reactive (not to say reactionary), and I think there's sort of a perfect storm of factors here--the public nature of the act, the participants, the video documentation, and the Internet holding it all together and the blogosphere re-iterating it all over the place.
And the thing about social change, and beliefs about acceptable actions in public (or private) spaces, is that it may start with individuals, but it has to end with community.
I agree. But I think that something like bellwether_talk has more chance of doing something with this than SFWA does.
Reply
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I read comments such as this and wonder what world the poster is living in, that is such an alternative reality from my own, where almost every member of SFWA has been discussing little else than this incident, publicly and privately, all over the internet ( ... )
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