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ever_neutral May 5 2011, 09:54:54 UTC
LOL I'm very flattered to have inspired this post?? :D Good discussion.

Partly that's because, in general, I'm just not as interested in romantic relationships - in fiction or RL - as I am in other kinds of relationships.

No, me too! I value romantic love least of all possible forms of love. So, we agree on a basic level, but... react differently? Heh.

Though, I think I have to clarify that when I say "fascination" (like with Dean/Cas), that's quite different from the type of emotional attachment I have to, say, Spike and Dawn's friendship. I don't need to ship the latter because I'm interested in them in a completely different way. I think they're adorable. But I don't want to sit down and pick the complexities of their interactions apart for hours. (Also: A tad squicky.)

I think another place where I may differ is... sexual chemistry. It's... kind of a big thing for me? Haha. Imma admit to being pretty shallow here - I may sometimes be tipped over into shipping something purely on the basis of the actors' insane chemistry. With the stipulation, of course, that the dynamic already resonates or appeals to me intellectually. So, I already love Buffy-Faith and Wes-Faith on a non-shippy level, but the sexual chemistry leaps out at me so much that I can't resist. Not gonna lie.

I totally see what you mean about Faith/Giles being more interesting in a romantic context. I have not really considered them much. You may be bringing me around.

Gaius/Six. For the twistedbadwrong first of all, because how incredibly screwed up these two are! But then for the hope that they could conceivably salvage something functional out of this mess. Those may be my favorite ships of all - the ones that should be unmitigated disasters, and aren't.

YES! I feel like I have not demonstrated sufficient squee about Gaius/Six? Because, OTP. And what you say about how it SHOULDN'T work, but DOES. Word.

And - to ramble some more - sometimes I'll ship something because it doesn't work. Which sounds strange and pointless, but bear with me. "Shipping" to me doesn't necessarily mean rooting for two characters to end up together. Most of my beloved ships are terribly d00med - and I wouldn't have them any other way? I'm just inordinately fond of the idea that love can destroy just as often as it can redeem/heal, etc. I think this is where we diverge on Lee/Kara. I don't actually disagree at all with your view that they're a trainwreck when they're not just friends. But -- I LIKE that trainwreck? The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work. (And I am revealing my utter pessimism here, but whatever.) And at the end of the day - they're still each other's best friend in the entire world, romance or not. So I don't feel like I've lost in any way at all.

lol, I talk too much. I should just freaking make my own post.

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eowyn_315 May 5 2011, 15:04:38 UTC
The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work. (And I am revealing my utter pessimism here, but whatever.)

OMG will you be my therapist because I think you just diagnosed my shipping tendencies. LOL

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ever_neutral May 6 2011, 00:29:57 UTC
HAHAHA CLEARLY WE ARE ALREADY EACH OTHER'S THERAPISTS. Yeah... Sometimes I see people complaining about Joss or whoever's apparent inability to write functional relationships or happy endings - and how that's unrealistic, because X knows plenty of happy couples irl. And I'm like, "LOL WHAT'S THAT LIKE??"

/fatalism

lol @ "diagnosing" shipping tendencies. Like some chronic disease. Indeed.

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eowyn_315 May 6 2011, 00:43:34 UTC
HAHAHAHAHA WE CLEARLY ARE.

Our shipping tendencies are totally a chronic disease. It's relationship dysfunctionitis or something.

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ever_neutral May 6 2011, 08:30:59 UTC
RELATIONSHIP DYSFUNCTIONITIS. HAHAHAHAHA.

We should start a group.

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snickfic May 6 2011, 02:01:12 UTC
I do definitely see a difference between Dean-Castiel and Spike-Dawn. Something to do with emotional engagement, maybe? Dean-Castiel is very highly emotionally charged. And now that I think about it, when I think 'slashy' what I'm really thinking of is 'emotionally charged.' (This is partly why the Arthur/Eames ship in Inception fandom threw me for such a loop - the other part being that I had to scratch my head and ask, "Which one was Eames, again?")

So would you say all emotionally charged relationships necessarily have a sexual component? Or, to take care of your caveat, that they all have either a sexual component or a, hmm, familial component?

I totally see what you mean about Faith/Giles being more interesting in a romantic context. I have not really considered them much.

I'm still working out for myself why I feel this way. I think it's partly because I want equality in their relationship, and it seems to me a romance would be likelier to get them there; otherwise he's always going to be the wise older mentor figure. I think an actual relationship might level that playing field somewhat and force each of them through all sorts of personal boundaries and awkwardness. They're both in desperate need of intimacy, and I don't think either of them is ever going to get it any other way.

YES! I feel like I have not demonstrated sufficient squee about Gaius/Six? Because, OTP. And what you say about how it SHOULDN'T work, but DOES. Word.

I've seen people argue the same for Saul/Ellen. How do you feel about them?

But -- I LIKE that trainwreck? The trainwreck is more real to me than most relationships that do work.

And this is where my biases come in, I think - just because a thing is realistic doesn't mean I want stories about it. Also, it seems to me that trainwreck relationships are easy but functional relationships are hard. Entropy, you know? So much harder to hurdle the obstacles and make the relationship work. I want to see that happen in my fiction, because I haven't figured it out myself yet. (That said, I can certainly see how some fictional trainwreck ships might appeal more than others.)

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ever_neutral May 6 2011, 08:45:46 UTC
So would you say all emotionally charged relationships necessarily have a sexual component? Or, to take care of your caveat, that they all have either a sexual component or a, hmm, familial component?

A tentative yes? Of course, I don't just want to put all relationships into specific boxes - but where fiction is concerned, the really emotionally resonant ones (for me) tend to be either deeply sexual or familial. In this sense, I understand why Wincest would be appealing to so many. I'll admit, I've often thought that if the Salvatore brothers on The Vampire Diaries weren't, you know, *brothers*, I would probably ship them quite hard.

And now that I think about it, when I think 'slashy' what I'm really thinking of is 'emotionally charged.' (This is partly why the Arthur/Eames ship in Inception fandom threw me for such a loop

Heh, this is interesting. I think banter is a Big Thing for a lot of people. I too tend to associate 'slashy' (or, 'shippy' in general) with 'emotionally charged'. What you say about Dean/Cas being very emotionally charged hits the nail on the head for me.

I've seen people argue the same for Saul/Ellen. How do you feel about them?

Haha, I like them okay? I think they do work. Well, apart from Saul murdering her and that whole thing. *rolls eyes*

Also, it seems to me that trainwreck relationships are easy but functional relationships are hard. Entropy, you know? So much harder to hurdle the obstacles and make the relationship work

Yeah, I definitely get what you mean. I totally haven't figured it out myself yet, either, but where I'm biased is that I... also apparently have no interest in figuring it out? As weird as that sounds. Probably that's just emotional immaturity, but I think it's also that I genuinely have never had any interest in it. Like, I never *once* fantasized about my wedding as a kid, you know? I don't have aspirations for it myself, so I don't desperately need to see it in my fiction. To conclude: shipping definitely has something to do with worldviews, whether we like it or not.

Hee. ~Interesting discussion~, this.

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snickfic May 7 2011, 18:28:06 UTC
I think banter is a Big Thing for a lot of people.

Yeah. I've come to realize that I Just Don't Get It. I mean, yes, I love wit and banter, but I'll toss puns and silly insults back and forth with anyone I can tease into playing; I have trouble seeing it as a shippy when people do it in fiction. (Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?)

A lot of people enthuse about Spike/Buffy banter, but unless it's written such that there are already feelings behind it on one or both sides, I kind of don't care. And the two of them verbally going at each other's throats just for the heck it doesn't entertain me.

I... also apparently have no interest in figuring it out?

Heh. Well, I'm with you in not being horribly invested in finding a serious relationship of my own, and I never dreamed about weddings either. However, I have this idea that part of my disinterest comes from having just not seen enough relationships that did work, either in fiction or RL. This sounds pretentious, but I really do think the world could benefit from more fictional depictions of relationships that work - not simple happily ever afters, but stories in which the couple has to actually work at their relationship and deal with stuff and work out their own personal quirky solutions to relationship issues. I think those stories have real value and I wish more people were interested in telling them.

Which is not to pooh-pooh your interest in stories about other, less functional relationships. This is pretty much just me trying to work out where I'm coming from; I hope you don't mind. This has indeed been a very interesting discussion!

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ever_neutral May 8 2011, 03:41:41 UTC
Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?

Hee, I think everyone does.

I definitely don't mind! I'm absolutely with you about the world benefiting from more realistic, healthier relationships in the media. I know a lot of people who have pretty fucked up ideas about romance, and undoubtedly it's society's old-fashioned/misoygnistic/Disney-fairytale-worshiping attitude towards romantic love that's had a hand in it.

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eowyn_315 May 9 2011, 00:46:56 UTC
Also, how would anyone watch The West Wing without shipping everyone in sight?

LOL, let me tell you, West Wing fandom was truly eye-opening. I didn't really know about slash, and I wasn't particularly shippy about the show (except for a few canon couples), and then I went online and discovered that EVERYONE was secretly having sex with EVERYONE ELSE! I HAD NO IDEA!

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snickfic May 9 2011, 00:48:37 UTC
Hah! And see, I have no shippy feelings about that show at all except maybe for some mild CJ/Danny and Sam/Ainsley.

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eowyn_315 May 9 2011, 00:41:43 UTC
I'll admit, I've often thought that if the Salvatore brothers on The Vampire Diaries weren't, you know, *brothers*, I would probably ship them quite hard.

Pfffft. Vampires are not deterred by silly things like INCEST.

(Hahaha, now I can imagine Damon getting it into his head to try to seduce Stefan, just because he knows Stefan's too uptight to ever agree to it.)

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ever_neutral May 9 2011, 00:52:16 UTC
HAHAHA yes, it'd definitely be less weird than it is to ordinary humans.

(DAMON WOULD TOTES DO THAT. BUT WHERE IS THE FIC???)

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eowyn_315 May 9 2011, 00:53:27 UTC
WRITE IT!!!!!

Hahaha, the number of TVD fics I've told to you write for me... you'd think I actually read fic in this fandom or something. :)

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ever_neutral May 9 2011, 00:59:49 UTC
Haha, you don't? I'm considering tackling some of these ideas after the finale. (Though, Damon-seduces-Stefan MUST exist somewhere.) Also there will probably be a bunch of new comment ficathons happening around then, if you're interested in dipping your toes.

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eowyn_315 May 9 2011, 01:01:47 UTC
Not really. I've read a couple of yours because they show up on my flist, but I don't go looking for fic or anything. I am kind of intrigued but mostly lazy, lol.

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