Comments | sistermagpie: Dicks with Wings

sistermagpie

Dicks with Wings

Oct 16, 2009 11:44

So Supernatural was on last night, which means time for the weekly round of "who's the biggest jerk and why, and who owes what to who..." Since I’ve been reading a lot about it, I'm going to say ...( why I think I think Castiel's transgressions coming to light is irrelevant. Possibly spoilers inside. )

meta, supernatural, tv

Comments 77

datenshiblue October 16 2009, 23:39:18 UTC

Yes, I think you're spot on. :)

Time after time, fans forget that this is a show about humans, and the supernatural. The supernatural includes all the monsters of the week, as well as gods, demons, and angels.

Last season, a huge chunk of the fandom refused to buy that Ruby might be genuinely helping Sam because she was a demon, which was the right call, even though Sam was fooled and the writers did their damnedest to fool the fans too. What was fascinating about her final reveal was that, yes, she betrayed Sam in the worst, deepest way but she somehow seemed to think he'd get over it! She really thought he'd eventually get over it and accept the rewards Lucifer would bestow upon him (like the gift of making Sam his vessel ;P). In other words, she was batshit crazy. In OTHER words, she reasoned not like a human but like a demon. Some demons have been shown to have sympathetic qualities and this lulls humans, and fans, sometimes, into thinking of them as being human ( ... )

sistermagpie October 17 2009, 02:39:45 UTC

LOL! I love the idea of that scene with your cat. I even used an analogy like that, that it's understandable to get frustrated with Castiel acting the way he acts, but it's possible still like being frustrated that Basset Hound doesn't purr. That's a good point about Ruby, too, because even if people thought she was bad, they probably thought she was bad on human terms. But she still had something surprising about what was going on. I don't think anybody would have really guessed her as a crazy zealot, but she basically managed to be so convincing because of a quasi-religious quest she was on. Thinking she was just screwing with them in a generally evil way is in a way missing the boat as much as thinking she was good because she said she was.

It's especially nice to think that it seemed like she did like Sam. She didn't see the whole thing as a big prank on him. She thought he would eventually see it was a good thing.

datenshiblue October 21 2009, 21:24:32 UTC

Exactly, which does a lot to explain how Sam was fooled. He's not that stupid! Yes, he was emotionally broken when she got to him but she learned to play the right role, learned what buttons not to push until he was hooked on the demon blood, and even then, played her game very careful indeed, but perhaps in her mind, for his good as much as for her goals. She almost sounded like she thought he would realize and be proud of her.

Or maybe she played the role so well she came to believe it, like an undercover cop who forgets who he really is.

hagar_972 October 17 2009, 10:24:34 UTC

I agree. This show is fairly consistent in characterizing angels and demons as essentially alien species. It's fairly interesting and also occasionally misleading,the latter for multiple reasons: (1) most of the audience seems to interpret these species as human cultures, so we're constantly flooded with that perspective, (2) they look like humans and speak like humans, lending credibility to the option that it's all just a big cultural misunderstanding and (3) demons, unlike angels, are essentially humans ( ... )

Thread 5

Argh, trying this again ginzai October 16 2009, 23:58:48 UTC

I love it when I've got a nice, lengthy response and then FF crashes on me. It's my favorite. < /whining>

You raise some interesting points and if you've not read it yet, I recommend taking a look at this meta by ahania. She's got some interesting points about culpability as well ( ... )

Re: Argh, trying this again percysowner October 17 2009, 01:45:35 UTC

First, I agree wholeheartedly that I want Castiel to take responsibility for his actions in releasing Sam. I don't think that Dean thinks the Angels released Sam. The Devils Traps were tampered with and Sam was using a lot of powers that Dean did not know about. He has every reason to think that Sam erased the lines on the Devils Traps and Ruby released him. Even if Dean doesn't think it was Ruby and that the Angels released Sam, I have seen nothing to indicate that he thinks that CASTIEL released Sam. He could easily blame it on Zachariah or any of the higher Angels. Dean is treating Castiel as a friend and an ally. Unless he knows the full extent of what Castiel did in Levee, all of his trust is based on a lie. If Castiel fesses up and Dean accepts him, I won't like it, but I will accept it. Until Castiel does confess, any and all criticism of Sam by Castiel is rank hypocrisy and is the continuation of a lie.

Re: Argh, trying this again ginzai October 17 2009, 17:58:38 UTC

To be honest, I don't think Dean has even had the time to really think through *how* Sam escaped. Right after it happened, he was 100% dedicated to tracking Sam down, then he was 100% lost in despair about how Sam might not actually be his Sam anymore, then he was 100% devoted to getting free to stop Sam, and so on. Even after things calmed down after Lucifer was actually released, I'm not sure he ever really sat down to consider what might have happened. IMHO, 4x21 was one of the worst days of his life, right up there with his own death and when demon!John was torturing him. Dean has a tendency to not like to think about things that really, really bother him and reminiscing on ANY part of 4x21 isn't something I can see him willing to do ( ... )

Re: Argh, trying this again percysowner October 17 2009, 18:48:21 UTC

This I very much disagree with. While I don't think it's necessarily fair that so much of the blame for the breaking of the seals goes to Sam and Dean (it's not like either of them did it on purpose, after all) IMHO, Castiel was less referring to the final seal here so much as Sam's choice to dabble in some very dark behaviors and mindsets. Sam might not have known that he'd be releasing Lucifer, but he DID know that drinking demon blood and trusting Ruby probably weren't the best of moral choices. Since canon has made it clear that Sam did so because he was seduced by the idea of having power and control as opposed to more positive motives, there's nothing wrong with calling Sam out on it, to my mind.,Yes Sam was warned against many things, but when Sam says "If we tell him the WHOLE truth then he may make the right decision." Castiel replies "You didn't". That is what I consider the hypocritical lie. Neither Sam nor Dean EVER knew the WHOLE truth, and on the last day Castiel released Sam knowing what the result would be and ( ... )

Thread 41

karabou October 16 2009, 23:59:23 UTC

Thank you, I really like the points you've made here!

sistermagpie October 17 2009, 02:46:00 UTC

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it!

strangemuses October 17 2009, 01:00:05 UTC

IMO, angels are not 'better' than humans. In the Bible, didn't God in fact ask the angels to bow down to humans because humans were supposed to be God's 'perfect' creation, complete with free will (which the angels lacked). Lucifer refused to bow down to any created being and subsequently got his angelic feelings bent all out of joint because of it. Angels are different sorts of beings entirely from humans ( ... )

sistermagpie October 17 2009, 02:49:24 UTC

Lucifer on SPN even re-told the story of refusing to back down to humans. I definitely think SPN is all about angels basically being more perfect due to their imperfections.

I had not read that in the book of Enoch! I wouldn't be surprised at all if the writers had read it--and I definitely believe that these angels would torture. I feel like they wouldn't have done it in this case because it would probably convince Castiel even more to doubt them, but these guys would definitely not be above torture of other angels generally.

strangemuses October 17 2009, 06:30:05 UTC

The info about the second heaven is in the second book of Enoch (IIRC it's also known as the Slavonic Enoch), in the section where Enoch is taken bodily into heaven and given the grand tour. The fourth or fifth heaven (?)has several fallen angels imprisoned and there was one other level of heaven (maybe #3) that had a pretty gruesome area set aside. It's a fascinating read. The fallen angels begged Enoch to intercede on their behalf but he refused.

I was writing apocalyptic war in heaven/fallen angel fics back in the late 90s so I read tons of this stuff. I love angel lore: mainstream Christian, apocryphal, Islamic... doesn't matter. They're so alien. From what I've seen, Supernatural is portraying Biblical angels very well.

static_pixie November 1 2009, 21:48:09 UTC

Just in answer to your last question, yes, I think the SPN writers have said that the Apocrypha is one of the places they have pulled from. They've definitely pulled from Enoch, anyway.

shaggydogstail October 17 2009, 02:27:30 UTC

Yes, this. I'm really glad that Castiel is still Very Much an Angel, not some sort of superpowered human with amusing social issues. His otherness is fundamental to his character, and while I can understand viewers judging him by human standards to an extent (we're all human, after all) it just doesn't work like that.

When Castiel says "you didn't" to Sam regarding making bad choices, I don't think he's joining in the fandom debates about whose fault everything is. I think he's just flatly stating that trusting the wildcards that are humans is just far too risky.

Absolutely. What Castiel says is true, and it's not about any Apocalypse Point Scoring. The fact that Jesse is a child really underlines the human/angel divide here - Sam and Dean (and viewers) see Jesse as an innocent child, and are naturally more protective of him because of his age. Castiel doesn't have this instinct (why should he?) so from his pov Jesse's age makes him more dangerous - if an intelligent, rational adult like Sam can't make the right choices with ( ... )

sistermagpie October 17 2009, 02:54:08 UTC

And Sam makes the same connection in the episode, that he, too, was a human who had dangerous powers and he was manipulated into using them badly. Sam's a good guy, committed to keeping Lucifer in hell, and yet the choice he made was wrong. Sam just related himself to Jesse in a slightly different way when he said he made the wrong choice and needed to believe someone else could. The central concept was pretty hard to avoid making the comparison, really!