See Dorothy Sayers' Gaudy Night for a discussion of "manly men and womenly women" (using those phrases) -- but the characters having the discussion are basically coining "womanly woman" for use as the analog to "manly man." :)
(And speaking of Sayers: I was recently in a large room full of women all yelling their conversations to be heard above the din, like you do. I thought of the scene in Gaudy Night where Harriet comments that a dining hall full of women is very shrill. Not so today! In my subculture but also in the US pretty generally as far as I can tell from media, the current fashion is for women to speak way down in the bottom of our vocal registers. So a room full of women is not noticably shriller than mixed company, though the average pitch is presumably higher.)
I grew up listening to Free To Be You And Me and was struck recently how heteronormative and gender-binary-normative it would strike the same population of listeners now...
Also, recently saw the somewhat-updated version of the musical Working (based on the
( ... )
Re: Misc thoughtssidereaMarch 27 2015, 21:09:56 UTC
Not so today! In my subculture but also in the US pretty generally as far as I can tell from media, the current fashion is for women to speak way down in the bottom of our vocal registers. So a room full of women is not noticably shriller than mixed company, though the average pitch is presumably higher.
Have you been following the vocal fry controversy? My impression is that vocal fry can only happen in chest voice, that it requires the larynx to be very relaxed.
I very much like the idea that we are in a period of women being militantly relaxed in public.
I grew up listening to Free To Be You And Me and was struck recently how heteronormative and gender-binary-normative it would strike the same population of listeners now...
Oh, gosh, yes, me too. I was thinking it might be great if somebody updated it.
I sometimes feel like I want to choose my own gender -- or rather, that somewhere along the line, I *did* choose one, or had it handed to me by my upbringing and liked it just fine -- and that that gender is "woman, as
( ... )
Re: Misc thoughtssidereaMarch 27 2015, 22:15:59 UTC
!!! The speech phenomenon of vocal fry in women's voices started getting attention in the media around 2011 (example, example). But it has only grown in media attention since then (example), as a casual google of "vocal fry" will attest.
Having scanned those links, that provides you with some of the context, for then having a listen to this which is meta pointing out all the tsking about vocal fry is looking awfully sexist.
Right. The term is "internalized", as in "internalized misogyny", not nearly discussed enough, and as you note just like the "internalized racism" reported on such studies, and for that matter "internalized homophobia", etc.
One of my favorite feminist experiences (that I've probably shared with you before) was during the 2008 Mass. Libertarian Party Convention. They were voting on platform planks and one proposed plank involved working to pass legislation to ensure that joint custody was the presumptive position during divorce judgments (something MRAs are constantly harping about society being biased against men about). Every single woman in the room voted for the measure. The measure failed.
I entirely agree with all of this. Also, you wrote:
I am not surprised to see a proliferation of gender identities today. I distinctly remember that when I was a young woman, and watching this shit-show emerge, I though, "Well, if everyone is going to behave like all acceptable performance of womanhood is a football and line up in two teams to shove it 'feminine'-ward or 'masculine'-ward, clearly, what would clear this up is having more genders."Indeed. In my own far fringe set of friends and acquaintances, almost half of the non-trans[*] men identify as a gender other than male. In addition, all but two of the non-trans[*] women I know identify as a gender other than female. I'm all for everyone being whatever gender they wish to be, but the discrepancy here seems remarkably telling - and seems to me to indicate that from the PoV of the people having to deal with them, current definitions of masculinity suck, but current definitions of femininity suck even more. I also entirely agree that we can't fix one w/o fixing both
( ... )
Oh, yes. I'd seen that post with the photos. Have you read Terry Real's I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression? It turns out to be hugely about the toxic effects of masculinity policing of boys, not least of which is that it both can be traumatic and that it forbids them from admitting the pain of that trauma or expressing it in any but the most violent ways, putting so many men in hideous double binds.
Yes, there's a significant difference between recognizing misogyny has a horrible effect on cis men, too and ceding cis white men their traditional lion's share of the spotlight
(Just like one can recognize that colonialism and racism (against people of color, to be crystal clear) -also- screws over white people while still maintaining the vital importance of white people learning to fight the instincts that have been trained into them and to become willing to sit down, stop trying to grab the spotlight and listen to what people of color have to say about their experiences) (lots of self-reprogramming this year, lots of "I can no longer unsee" making so many white-supremacy-apologist forums now very painful to view)
As for the OP, the circles I've found myself in this year are very third wave and have no patience for second wave "white feminism"/"cupcake feminism"
(And a male "white feminist" of my acquaintance is highly offended by the 'abrasiveness', oh well :)
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(And speaking of Sayers: I was recently in a large room full of women all yelling their conversations to be heard above the din, like you do. I thought of the scene in Gaudy Night where Harriet comments that a dining hall full of women is very shrill. Not so today! In my subculture but also in the US pretty generally as far as I can tell from media, the current fashion is for women to speak way down in the bottom of our vocal registers. So a room full of women is not noticably shriller than mixed company, though the average pitch is presumably higher.)
I grew up listening to Free To Be You And Me and was struck recently how heteronormative and gender-binary-normative it would strike the same population of listeners now...
Also, recently saw the somewhat-updated version of the musical Working (based on the ( ... )
Reply
Have you been following the vocal fry controversy? My impression is that vocal fry can only happen in chest voice, that it requires the larynx to be very relaxed.
I very much like the idea that we are in a period of women being militantly relaxed in public.
I grew up listening to Free To Be You And Me and was struck recently how heteronormative and gender-binary-normative it would strike the same population of listeners now...
Oh, gosh, yes, me too. I was thinking it might be great if somebody updated it.
I sometimes feel like I want to choose my own gender -- or rather, that somewhere along the line, I *did* choose one, or had it handed to me by my upbringing and liked it just fine -- and that that gender is "woman, as ( ... )
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Having scanned those links, that provides you with some of the context, for then having a listen to this which is meta pointing out all the tsking about vocal fry is looking awfully sexist.
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(The comment has been removed)
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One of my favorite feminist experiences (that I've probably shared with you before) was during the 2008 Mass. Libertarian Party Convention. They were voting on platform planks and one proposed plank involved working to pass legislation to ensure that joint custody was the presumptive position during divorce judgments (something MRAs are constantly harping about society being biased against men about). Every single woman in the room voted for the measure. The measure failed.
Reply
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I am not surprised to see a proliferation of gender identities today. I distinctly remember that when I was a young woman, and watching this shit-show emerge, I though, "Well, if everyone is going to behave like all acceptable performance of womanhood is a football and line up in two teams to shove it 'feminine'-ward or 'masculine'-ward, clearly, what would clear this up is having more genders."Indeed. In my own far fringe set of friends and acquaintances, almost half of the non-trans[*] men identify as a gender other than male. In addition, all but two of the non-trans[*] women I know identify as a gender other than female. I'm all for everyone being whatever gender they wish to be, but the discrepancy here seems remarkably telling - and seems to me to indicate that from the PoV of the people having to deal with them, current definitions of masculinity suck, but current definitions of femininity suck even more. I also entirely agree that we can't fix one w/o fixing both ( ... )
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(The comment has been removed)
(Just like one can recognize that colonialism and racism (against people of color, to be crystal clear) -also- screws over white people while still maintaining the vital importance of white people learning to fight the instincts that have been trained into them and to become willing to sit down, stop trying to grab the spotlight and listen to what people of color have to say about their experiences) (lots of self-reprogramming this year, lots of "I can no longer unsee" making so many white-supremacy-apologist forums now very painful to view)
As for the OP, the circles I've found myself in this year are very third wave and have no patience for second wave "white feminism"/"cupcake feminism"
(And a male "white feminist" of my acquaintance is highly offended by the 'abrasiveness', oh well :)
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