Как в старину было: не вышел на коммунистический субботник - на кол!

[shkrobius]

scholar_vit

Comments

[gomberg]

На кол - не на кол (я не антрополог, сам не знаю, а искать лень), но изгнание из общины широко практикуется даже сегодня, причем совсем не в первобытных обществах. Скажем, в Мексике во многих местах абсолютно обязательным является участие (как трудовое, так и финансовое, причем очень интенсивное) в огранизации церемоний к местным праздникам - обычно, католическим, по кр. мере формально (нередко, в них больше от язычества - но это отдельный разговор). В этих же самых местах сейчас идет массовое обращение в евангелический протестантизм и пятидесятничество. Естественно, новообращеные отказываются признавать эти праздники христианским и богоугодным делом (они и католиков-то отказываются признавать христианами). Если в деревне их мало, за отказ участвовать в общем празднестве их просто изгоняют. Если сразу обращается много народу, но не подавляющее большинство, деревня раскалывается, и более слабой группе приходится уходить на новое место. Доходит и до смертоубийства

[shkrobius]

I can tell you the perspective of medieval Jewish Law (Maimonides), in which there was such a thing as coercive levies,and were excommunication COULD mean death. The salient point is that these were never administered for refusal to volunteer

[gomberg]

I am not sure I get the distinction. In my examples, you could publicly declare that you do not want to take part in certain communal activities, such as funding and organizing the local saint's day celebrations or serving as a mayor. Nevertheless, if you are selected to do it, you have to do it or leave the community. This is simply NOT viewed as a voluntary activity - if chosen, you do it, or else. It is part of your decision to be a member of the community: you are not doing it because you think that it is good, but because the community says so. Most likely, these days you won't be killed (murder is illegal, of course), though I wouldn't be dead certain of that. But your life in the community would become intolerable. Frankly, I don't see much of a difference with what you describe for Medeival Jewish communities

[shkrobius]

I am not saying that your Mexican village is different, but as I've never been there, I chose medieval Jewish ghetto to anatomize the situation. I do not believe that excommunication from your village means certain death, so SV's rhetorics is inapplicable in any case. You can make such a case for the ghetto, at least in some periods of time. So it is closer to the described dilemma. And still voluntary was voluntary and mandatory was mandatory. It became mandatory only after voluntary agreement, with every opportunity given to make this decision free. Ostrakism, upopularity is one thing, excommunication is another. In Jewish practice excommunication is the equivlent of legal death. All contracts are void, the person is considered to be dead. His children are orphans, his wife is a widow. The person is officially cursed and sent away. His record is communicated as widely as possible, instructing other communities. It is a very serious business. Such excommunication was not practiced on those refusing mandatory work. Peer pressure is