meta rec - Oh My God, I Can See Your Id! by brown_betty

[seperis]

Read this right now. If you are having a bad day, you will feel better. If you are having a great day, it will make it awesome.

Let's Talk About Books!: Today's topic: Oh My God, I Can See Your Id! by brown_betty - the comments. Are. HilariousJust--you know, run along and giggle hysterically. Though now I do want an argument related to profic id as

Comments

[perspi]

*thinky thoughts that turned out to be not so speedy*

I haven't read the entirety of the link yet (am very excited, though!)--but I do think, on some level, that it is more acceptable to drown your id in fanfic than in profic--at least, it's more acceptable to do it so it's visible. That on some level, many of us regard fandom as an 'escape,' and as such we can indulge in things we don't get to do in other circles of our lives. That many of us are aware of the sometimes-indulgent nature of fic, and we (writers and readers) come into it, to paraphrase what brown_betty said, hoping that our ids will meet convivially. bironic had some excellent thoughts about fandom on LJ as a gift culture--that we each post stories as gifts to the community-at-large, and we recieve gifts in return (in the form of comments and respect, etc)--and I think this gift culture makes id-drowning, indulgence, whatever, more acceptable. Like a fan may say, "Here's my id! Check it out!" and other fans can go, "Shiny! My id likes it, too!" but those who are all, "OH MY ID SAYS NO"

[seperis]

Like a fan may say, "Here's my id! Check it out!" and other fans can go, "Shiny! My id likes it, too!" but those who are all, "OH MY ID SAYS NO" can just back away.

That's like, the best description of fan culture ever. Right there.

*awed*

[sholio]

Well, isn't all fiction id-vortexy to some extent, by its very nature? Having said that, though, I think that the extent to which it becomes obnoxiously id-vortexy to other people is some combination of how deeply the reader's id is in sync with your own, and how much the plot itself is subsumed to the id elements.

One of the differences between fanfic and profic is that fanfic is a lot more up-front about being almost entirely id-based. In fic, let's face it -- finding a good plot is nice (and I tend to prefer plot-driven fic in general), but it's not your foremost expectation when you go looking for fic, is it? And it's a rare fan writer that can pull off a novel-length genfic that's focused solely on minor character #456 who appeared briefly in episode #29 and never even had a name, and have people read it

[seperis]

Gor comes to mind whenever I think of id-fic, even moreso than John Ringo, shockingly enough. I think it's the fact the first one or three or whatever you can actually see him teetering on the precipice trying to deny it's all about the "WHEE FANTASY" and then falling so. Damn. Hard.

I love those books, and I love them ironically. There is nothing like being thirteen and reading about the slavegirl getting two brands for liar and thief while writhing in sensual pain and still knowing that no one, in these books, ever gets down to it in a decent lengthy manner (I want to say I clocked the longest actual sex at like, two paragraphs. And it managed to be explicit without being sexy. Kind of boggling). It's like Anne Bishop, God love her--for books about sex and sexual submission, there's so little actuality.

(I'm still not over Gor doing that. It's like the biggest tease ever.)

(Codicil: I haven't read all the Gor books, just a healthy sampling. It's possible I missed where he finally took the erotica dive and took it hard.)

[sholio]

The more I think about it, the more I think that labeling and expectation have a lot to do with whether the reader's reaction is "Yay! Id!" or "Oh god! Put that away!" Romance as a genre is marketed as a fantasy; I don't think people go to romance looking for complicated plots or meaning-of-the-universe type stuff (as a genre, anyway; individual authors, sure). The expectation with most profic is that you're forking over your $7.99 for the story that you read about on the back cover blurb, and if it's fairly up-front about the authorial fantasy elements, well, yay. You know what you're buying. But if instead, you get 300 pages of the author's masturbatory fantasy along with the spaceships or the mystery, it's not a happy surprise (unless you're into whatever they're peddling, of course, in which case you'll be off for more of their books, of course).

[cathalin]

It does seem like with fanfic, most writers know they're writing id!fic, whereas in pro, the expectation is that one is not.

Of course there are exceptions with fanfic -- MarySues are the classic example. But mainly, I suspect fanfic writers would be more apt to say, "Yeah, I had spanking in my fic because it turns me on to think about it," rather than, "I had spanking in my fic because the requirements of plot required it." For slash writers, I think we're all basically saying, "yeah, I admit it, I like thinking about guys being friends/lovers," whereas in profic it's rarely up front.

However, I'm guessing that even for fanfic writers, there are pieces of our id showing that we're not aware of -- hee, at least except the hours of 4 and 6 a.m. *g* It would be fun (sort of) to have people tell us what they think our most secret id selves are saying.

Thanks for that link -- awesome post and hilarious and thought-provoking comments!

[mecurtin]

is it more acceptable to drown in your id in fanfic than in profic?

Yes.

If the short answer won't do, here's the long answer: expecting people to pay for your id is problematic. Worse is putting your id on parade and characterizing it as anything else. John Ringo is our hero because he knows and acknowledges what he's doing -- he doesn't dress it up as Literary Art (see: Updike, John).

Another way of putting it: both Ringo and Updike drown in their ids, but only one of them was drowning in his ego.

[solvent90]

Another way of putting it: both Ringo and Updike drown in their ids, but only one of them was drowning in his ego.

OH GOD YES THIS. *hands you the hat of shiniest-clever person on the internet* It's Updike's claim to be speaking from some universal truth-speaking point of view while actually speaking from the skeevy-fantasy place that infuriates: I don't feel excluded as a human being from a self-confessed male fantasy, because it acknowledges its own limited function/place in the world, but writers like Updike make me feel like they actually think people like me are not present in the universe.

[ariadne83]

YES! The id and the ego! That's a great distinction.

[suaine]

Are we talking about ID as defined by psychoanalysis? Because in that case I will have to withdraw from the discussion before I hit something. XD (my issues with the psychoanalytic school of thought in psychology runs deep and probably has its own mommy issues)

[seperis]

It's referring to this.

[suaine]

Yes, that is a bastardized concept of Freud's, which is just going to make me hang out in another corner and giggle uncontrollably. Or maybe cry. I think I might cry.

[seperis]

Okay.