I wonder if books like Twilight have soured people on the whole 1st person POV thing. I would have thought 2nd person would be more likely to be on there - at least partly because it's very hard to do well so you rarely see it done well. Although you also rarely see it done, so perhaps it doesn't spring to mind as much as 1st person does.
I wonder if books like Twilight have soured people on the whole 1st person POV thing.
That's possible. I hadn't thought about that.
Second POV is also the one I thought would be more likely to be on that list. It's so hard to do well, it's got a bad reputation over the years because it's hard to do well, and it's hard to sustain a story of any length in second person.
Then again, it's so hard to sustain a story of any length which might be why it's so rare. I've read a couple of short things that were amazing, but that's about it.
What's a girl cooty (cootie?)?
Heh :-D I think I'm picking up the local lingo! Kind of like "ew, nits!" but...American.
And it's yet another of the "OMG, women are going to cons and doing stuff in sci fi and oppressing our rights to slap them on the bum and ask them for a fuck - whhhhhhhhy?" things
I think second person POV is best on something short. The sort of effect it has isn't so great over a longer fic.
And it's yet another of the "OMG, women are going to cons and doing stuff in sci fi and oppressing our rights to slap them on the bum and ask them for a fuck - whhhhhhhhy?" things
Ah. I find that really weird, because most men are excited that women are into that sort of thing because they tend to assume that all women are only into shoes and kittens.
Ah. I find that really weird, because most men are excited that women are into that sort of thing because they tend to assume that all women are only into shoes and kittens.
I think we've been lucky about which conventions we attend and which corners of SF fandom we live in. Overall, we've managed to find the good guys. I've encountered the odd guy who wants to see my geek credentials before he'll believe I'm entitled to be there, but I haven't had any other problems.
Out in the wider SF world, there seems to be a big issue :-(
I think it varies from fandom to fandom as to what a shameful trope is. Weirdly, some fandoms for books written in first person tend to avoid fic written in first person. I wonder if those groups are made up of older fans who brought their shame to the fandom from elsewhere, or if they've read enough fics in that fandom with people not getting the voice quite right that they've given up on fannish first person POV
( ... )
Tropes, ICs, OCs, and Mary Sue 1/2selenay936July 8 2013, 16:57:10 UTC
My comments got long, hence the two part reply :-D Apparently I have a lot of feels about Mary Sues and original characters.
or if they've read enough fics in that fandom with people not getting the voice quite right that they've given up on fannish first person POV.
My instinct is that it's this more than any kind of residual shame from older fans. I could be totally wrong, though :-D
It was really, really hard.
You've just nailed all the many reasons 1st POV is so hard and why it's so easy to do badly. It requires a totally different approach to telling a story from third person and getting it wrong is painful for the reader.
I suspect a lot of hate has less to do with "this is a bad story" and more to do with "I think you're writing this character wrong". I know that's the main reason I hit the back button.The two things that get me hitting the back button are characterisations that don't match my head canons (I hesitate to say poor characterisation because it probably 'feels' right to the writer) and fics with such terrible
( ... )
Tropes, ICs, OCs, and Mary Sue 2/2selenay936July 8 2013, 16:58:33 UTC
So that has had me rethinking some of my knee-jerk reactions to characters in fics that seem a little 'too good'. What is it about that character that I don't like? Why is Phil Coulson allowed to be perfect and flawed with people living him anyway and able to do all the things but at the same time show vulnerability, when I struggle to stand other (female) characters being written that way or with that much attention?Part of me wondered whether it's the gender of the character. Female OCs get tagged as Mary Sues and hated by fandom, some female canon characters get the same reaction and yet we're presented with Phil Coulson and we adore him. Is it because we find it easier to read those traits in a character who has those subtle gender differences and when it's a female, we have a "bitch NO" knee-jerk reaction *because* of the gender
( ... )
I just got to work and I'm still a little sleepy, so I'm going to preface this by saying that I'll come back and engage more of your points later when I'm more coherent... but PLEASE don't tone down your OC. You have great reasons for having her there, great reasons for keeping her there, and you do characters good. Cutting her back because someone else pointed out that a different someone else might have a knee-jerk reaction to her (so it's not even your own instinct that this character might not be sitting right in the story) just seems overly drastic
( ... )
Two things that I really can't tolerate, though: prose written in dialect, and non-standard punctuation. Both make it a real effort to read, continually reminding me that the author's made a choice to pound me in the face with a decision they've made, as opposed to letting me be wrapped in the story.
Anything that pulls me out of the story because I have to 'sound' it out in my head to make sense of it or think hard about the sentence to get even the most basic understanding will make me fail out of a book or fic so fast. I want to be wrapped up and absorbed in what's happening, not thinking about the sentence structure and how to interpret it.
Comments 13
What's a girl cooty (cootie?)?
Reply
That's possible. I hadn't thought about that.
Second POV is also the one I thought would be more likely to be on that list. It's so hard to do well, it's got a bad reputation over the years because it's hard to do well, and it's hard to sustain a story of any length in second person.
Then again, it's so hard to sustain a story of any length which might be why it's so rare. I've read a couple of short things that were amazing, but that's about it.
What's a girl cooty (cootie?)?
Heh :-D I think I'm picking up the local lingo! Kind of like "ew, nits!" but...American.
And it's yet another of the "OMG, women are going to cons and doing stuff in sci fi and oppressing our rights to slap them on the bum and ask them for a fuck - whhhhhhhhy?" things
Reply
And it's yet another of the "OMG, women are going to cons and doing stuff in sci fi and oppressing our rights to slap them on the bum and ask them for a fuck - whhhhhhhhy?" things
Ah. I find that really weird, because most men are excited that women are into that sort of thing because they tend to assume that all women are only into shoes and kittens.
Reply
I think we've been lucky about which conventions we attend and which corners of SF fandom we live in. Overall, we've managed to find the good guys. I've encountered the odd guy who wants to see my geek credentials before he'll believe I'm entitled to be there, but I haven't had any other problems.
Out in the wider SF world, there seems to be a big issue :-(
Reply
Reply
or if they've read enough fics in that fandom with people not getting the voice quite right that they've given up on fannish first person POV.
My instinct is that it's this more than any kind of residual shame from older fans. I could be totally wrong, though :-D
It was really, really hard.
You've just nailed all the many reasons 1st POV is so hard and why it's so easy to do badly. It requires a totally different approach to telling a story from third person and getting it wrong is painful for the reader.
I suspect a lot of hate has less to do with "this is a bad story" and more to do with "I think you're writing this character wrong". I know that's the main reason I hit the back button.The two things that get me hitting the back button are characterisations that don't match my head canons (I hesitate to say poor characterisation because it probably 'feels' right to the writer) and fics with such terrible ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Reply
Two things that I really can't tolerate, though: prose written in dialect, and non-standard punctuation. Both make it a real effort to read, continually reminding me that the author's made a choice to pound me in the face with a decision they've made, as opposed to letting me be wrapped in the story.
Bah.
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