Comments | sbuchler: Hose in the Maciejowski Bible

sbuchler

Hose in the Maciejowski Bible

Aug 13, 2009 10:19

I have a new-old obsession: At Pennsic eestep picked up a copy of the Maciejowski Bible. I borrowed it to start doing an analysis of the colors of hose and what color tunics they were paired with (since my copy was at home). I finally finished up the count on Tuesday (there are a lot of human figures in that manuscript!!). I spent hours yesterday ( Read more... )

costume, medieval, 13th century, maciejowski

Comments 48

gwacie August 13 2009, 21:01:59 UTC

Stripes on socks could also be embroidered or applied decoration... maybe it was considered sexy?? heh. ;) I wanna see your charts and graphs! Playing with Excel is too fun! :)

sbuchler August 13 2009, 21:04:30 UTC

Maybe it was considered sexy... though they're never in the "sexy" scenes. Nudity trumps ;-)

Embroidered decoration? An overall pattern on socks? They're going to wear out so quickly... And why wouldn't it appear on men who are going to be showing it off quite a lot more?

sbuchler August 13 2009, 21:05:39 UTC

P.S. Of course you're going to see the charts and graphs.... didn't I mention wheedling you into putting it online? ;-)

katerinfg August 13 2009, 21:54:48 UTC

A friend told me at Pennsic that he's quite sure that the striped hose you refer to are evidence for knitted socks in our period. I like the striped socks that come in all the different colors, and another friend thinks they're tres sexy, so I'm choosing to believe him.

sbuchler August 14 2009, 03:30:30 UTC

Stripes alone cannot prove that they are knitted. For both possible patterns (bias and straight cut) I can easily see how to make horizontal stripes. It's possible. The question is, was it done? From all I've seen (which isn't much) knitted stockings were a big new innovation in Elizabeth I's court. So, if that technology was wildly used earlier why was it forgotten?

gwacie August 14 2009, 12:53:37 UTC

Hrm, what about Nalbinding? That's earlier and would have a horizontal pattern... dunno when/where they stopped making nalbound socks though. Fascinating.

sbuchler August 14 2009, 13:26:19 UTC

I haven't seen naalbinding documented to _western_ europe circa 1250. Scandanavia from something like 600 to 1000 yes. France? 13th century? I dunno. However, like knitting, it's _not_ my area of expertise. I lump both knitting and naalbinding together as the third possible hypothisis for constructing Maciejowski-style women's leg wear, and refuse draw a conclusion between the three hypothises, as there just isn't data to support discounting any of them.

Do you know naalbinding? I'm assuming stripes are as easy to do in naalbinding as in knitting... but I might be wrong. The only naalbinding I've ever seen was a solid color...

Thread 9

virginiadear August 14 2009, 11:33:49 UTC

This is likely stirring the pot, but I'm going to mention a couple of things ( ... )

sbuchler August 14 2009, 13:19:42 UTC

Not all reds are light fugitive - Madder is notoriously both light-fast and color-fast (e.g. resistant to fading in the wash). :-) Interestingly, most of the reds in the Maciejowski Bible are orange-reds more suggestive of madder then kermes. Occasionally, in certain images you see a true scarlet color, but mostly it's an orangey (madder-like) red. Also of possible interest - the only yellows in the Maciejowski Bible are gilt. Dunno if that has any relevance or not ( ... )

virginiadear August 14 2009, 14:13:18 UTC

Agreed; and I'm aware that not all reds are light-fugitive. I'm only suggesting that this is something you might want to take into account.
Or not.
I was thinking primarily of artist's pigments, but had to include mention of tapestries because of the "blue" vegetation.

Regarding footwear, socks are older than full-length hose/hosen. The ancient Greeks referred to them (made differently, I think, to modern socks, but not completely dissimilar.)

Does anyone involved in this discussion have a link to the striped socks you're talking about? I admit I'm not all that familiar with the Maciejowski Bible; I'd love to have a look at these.

Like you, I don't really knit. I can do knit stitch and purl stitch, but I kind of fake casting on (don't ask! :-S) and kind of fake binding off which somehow isn't so serious a heresy.
I keep promising myself I'm going to learn, though. And to learn to increase and decrease, but I've been promising literally for decades and it ain't happened yet.

sbuchler August 14 2009, 14:26:49 UTC

This is the best picture of women's striped socks: http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf18/otm18ra.gif it's folio 18, a picture of Ruth working in the fields for Naomi. Both figures in the detail picture I linked too are Ruth - think time-lapse photography ;-) Go here: http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm to scroll though the entire bible. Pictures can be a bit slow to load, however.

Socks vs full hosen - I lean towards socks for women, but there's nothing in the Maciejowski Bible to suggest either way. And the other pictures that I can think of that show women wearing knee-highs are ~50 years later (or more)...

Thread 20

virginiadear August 14 2009, 18:20:15 UTC

This ( ... )

sbuchler August 14 2009, 18:27:10 UTC

I thought naalbinding _was_ single needle knitting *confused* :-S

I had fun surfing some of the egyption finds a few days ago :-) but as you said, I have no idea if any of those techniques made it to 13th century Paris.

Late 14th century is England is closer in time and place then anything I'd seen previously! (not that it's _very_ close, but still...) Thanks! :-)

virginiadear August 14 2009, 18:39:17 UTC

As I understand it, *somehow* the yarn and the *knitting* needle make a fabric, probably shaped 'in the round' when it's finished, the way a sock is rounded at the toes and bends and curves at the heel, by manipulating one or the other or both. You have orderly rows of loops passing through orderly rows of loops ( ... )

sbuchler August 14 2009, 18:49:35 UTC

You obviously know much more about it than me - thank you again! :-)

Thread 8

ppfuf August 14 2009, 19:35:11 UTC

Hi! I forwarded a link of this to GM, who says "Very interesting!" and made some already-said comments about color and dye.

Also, you do you remember Christian? He's been writing about socks recently, and would probabaly be able to answer your questions about knitted socks and nalbinding.
http://xrian.livejournal.com/52794.html?view=128058#t128058

ppfuf August 14 2009, 19:35:47 UTC

_She_. Typing fail. Sorry.

sbuchler August 14 2009, 19:46:58 UTC

Shall I send GM the paper once I have it written? (I'm hopeing to finish the first draft this weekend :-) ) I noticed he'd helped do the count of hose colors in 14th and 15th century manuscripts that Master Broom uses :-)

Which reminds me, I really should send y'all the 2 papers I've written on Brugundian men's fashion... even if they want more massaging. I expect GM would find it very interesting :-)

Thank you!!!