Heroes through the female gaze

[sartorias]

Not just one but a couple of times, at ConDor, we were talking about quests, heroes, heroines, and glanced off heroes as written by women. That fit into a larger question about women's influence in letters that I actually wrote up, and will appear at the Fantasy Cafe in a few weeks.

But first, confining myself to heroes as written by females. I'd

Comments

[whswhs]

I am reminded, when you write that I can imagine that they did not see the ‘perfect knight’ in huge men tromping sweaty and filthy straight from the battlefield into her fine rooms, blabbing exclusively of killing unruly barons and damned Saracens, to the exclusion of wit, literature, music, and other emotions besides the urge to deal death, of taking a look into Castiglione when I was writing GURPS Social Engineering. I was struck by his contrasting civilized Italian courtiers with crude French knights who had no interests other than war and hunting-at the time, because it so contrasted with the more modern image of the French as quintessentially civilized, but it also seems now to fit with your thesis. All those salons must have had an effect!

In an odd way, GURPS Social Engineering could be viewed as representing a parallel evolution in a modern hobby: It was an attempt to provide rules and game mechanics for roleplaying social relations and persuasion with as much detail as combat, the more traditional focus of rpgs. In the games

[sartorias]

Thanks for the data on the Gurps Social Engineering--that is fascinating stuff.

Re Tolkien, it's true, but have you noticed any patterns, either like what I mentioned or different, in female-penned heroes?

[whswhs]

Well, looking at the women authors I read somewhat frequently: Bujold of course has Miles, and Dag, and the male heroes of some of the other series; I'd say she's one of the strongest cases-even though Miles is also a hyperactive little git. Cherryh seems to run more to heroines, and when she does have heroes, they're often a bit dysfunctional as a result of having been thoroughly messed up by their past histories. The Le Guin characters who stand out for me are Ged, who's proud and makes friends with difficulty but is loyal to the few he has, and Shevek, who's primarily passionate about ideas and ideals. Moon mostly has heroines; on the other hand, Ky Vatta's love interest is a sardonic bad boy type but not a brutish thug. Going back a long way, I mostly remember Norton for her telepathic mutant outcast boys trying to survive in a hostile world, often in the wilderness. Willis again has a lot of heroines, especially in her time travel stories; her heroes strike me as more scholarly than anything else. Yarbro has St.-Germain, who is

[sartorias]

Interesting observations (except that I find Yarbro's St. Germaine increasingly smarmy and unctuous, as well as singularly wit-free.)

[rosaleeluann]

I've noticed this too. Most of my favorite books are written by women. Eugenides, Miles, Lord Peter, Sir Percy, Peaceable Sherwood, even Chrestomanci--they all fit the mold, some more than others.

Oddly though, I wouldn't necessarily want to marry someone like that. I find the character type very entertaining to read about, but I don't find all aspects of the character type to be attractive for me personally as a potential husband.

[sartorias]

That is so true!

[seajules]

I'd say one of the many irritants that crop up when men speculate "what women want" is that it is always assumed, despite both evidence and declarations to the contrary, that a woman's taste in fictional men directly correlates to her preferences in a mate. It's such a pernicious fallacy that I've stopped engaging with anyone who states their belief in it.

[houseboatonstyx]

Heros written by females? Well, without reading any further, here are some that come to my mind, more or less in order.

Lord Peter Wimsey
Mairelon the Magician
Mr. Darcy
Mr. Spock (partially written by Leigh Brackett?)
John Galt

These keep popping up like lightbulbs, but weren't by women:

Tarzan
Perry Mason
Indiana Jones

Well, some of those lightbulbs won't pop up again, so I guess I'll go ahead and read for the pattern. At the moment the pattern I see is, they actually deserve the alpha role (usually by accident of birth, sometimes by long practice in worthwhile skills). But they do converse equally with women (though sometimes it takes some getting to).

[sartorias]

I think Lord Peter is an intelligent descendant of The Scarlet Pimpernel, and Mairelon a kind of PG amalgam of Heyer's heroes. Patterns, yes. Especially with Mr. Darcy at the top.

[whswhs]

I would note, though, that John Galt has at least two major competitors for male hero of his novel: Francisco d'Anconia, who is sort of an analog of the Scarlet Pimpernel or Batman (though his playboy act is somewhat impaired by his making long ideological speeches at parties), and Hank Rearden, who is chained by his own guilt to a family that holds everything he values in contempt. Both of them actually have more characterization that John Galt

[sartorias]

Huh. I never would have considered Galt in this category as I found him such a repellent gasbag. But this is all de gustibus.

[rachelmanija]

My comment got stuck in moderation due, I assume, to containing links, but I replied to someone who wondered what non-western women had written about in times gone by

[sartorias]

Oh, that sounds quite good!

[whswhs]

I've been a fan of Mahadeviyakka for a long time. Her recurring trope seems to be her illicit love affair with Shiva, the "lord white as jasmine." I think she appeals to me partly because of her vividly concrete imagery; for example,

Like a tax collector in a town
I go to and fro without rest.

[seajules]

Awesome topic, Sherwood! For myself, I am very much a fan of the "fish out of water" hero, like Cherryh's mentally/emotionally scarred, explicitly pretty men, or McKillip's introverted, often scholarly types. I tend not to trust the dazzlers, either in life or in literature, unless the dazzling is only a mask over a more withdrawn nature. I haven't studied enough of the history of literature to really say where I think this archetype came from, except both the scarring and the quietude call to mind the smith gods; not just Hephaestos, but Govannan, Goibniu, and Weyland (not actually a god, but a prominent and iconic enough figure to keep the company of gods). In fact, the tie to some kind of making or creating is also often part of the appeal of such characters. They can be excellent warriors, but more often they are artisans, explorers, and scholars.

In Twilight dynamics, they might be considered beta males, but I don't actually find it useful to apply canine social theory to humans.

[sartorias]

I like this link to Hephaestos, which Rachel mentioned. I'd like to follow that up with some reading, I think.

[rachelmanija]

I only just now realized that we have a quiet, often-overlooked, disabled hero who knows a lot about machinery. Subconscious associations?

[sartorias]

Oh, nice thought. All I was aware of was working against currently popular patterns, but you are right.