Women in SF and Fantasy

[sartorias]

Probably everyone here is aware of the discussion going on all over about a recent discussion of the "best" works of SF, and how few women were mentioned.

la_marquise_de began a list of women writers whose works she felt should be represented on that list, and encouraged others to do so

Comments

[la_marquise_de_]

Mists has caused me endless trouble in my other life, as too many people take it as straight historical truth. So I have a hugely mixed relationship with it. There are things I love, like the way she lets the characters age, the way she doesn't flinch from ambiguity and unpleasantness, the way she handles pain and grief. There are things I dislike, like the overly modern psychology of some parts of it (no woman in that period is going to agonise over the morality of abortion. She'd be too busy worrying about feeding herself and whether she could survive either the abortion or the birth), the sentimentality, the promulgation of the independent Celtic woman myth, the one-note negative portrayal of the Christian church... (Note to the wise. Christianity improved the lot of women in the Celtic speaking countries.) But it remains a hugely important book and it belongs there.
And yes, why is the important question. The list is just a conversation opener. I want to hear about books. Everyone is welcome to stop by and join in.

[sartorias]

I had the same problem with Mists--not that I ever said so. What would be the use? (And she was scarcely aware of me anyway, except as another of Diana's strays, and would never have asked my opinion.)

I did appreciate how it sparked interest in history, and reaffirmed female agency for readers, which was why I recommended it, even though I personally found myself skimming great portions in exasperation.

[dweomeroflight]

I had the same issue reading Mists and when I read The Firebrand later, I saw some of the same things repeated.

However, I can see why it was an important book in fantasy.

[marycatelli]

I have myself heard a woman exclaim that she didn't know all that stuff in Mists.

[handworn]

She's lucky she was only weakened by the polio outbreak. My grandfather was killed by it. I'll have to find her books, though; sounds like the kind of thing I loved when growing up.

Hey, sartorias, ever read Paper Moon by Joe David Brown? It was made into a movie, which I haven't seen, but I can't imagine it could be better than the book. Not a SF/F work, but I think you'd like it if you haven't read it.

[sartorias]

She was paralyzed, and spent the remainder of her life in a wheelchair, but it didn't affect her mind. I am so sorry you lost a grandfather to it. I vaguely remember the fear of those days, which blended with the fear that the Soviets were going to bomb us any day.

I really should read Paper Moon--at the time the movie came out, I was so repelled by Tatum O'Neal's character (felt that she wasn't like a real kid at all, but another of those precious fast-talking mini adults in the form of a kid that were popular around then) that I never looked at it again or sought the book. But enough time has gone by that I really should revisit the film, and read the book.

[handworn]

Read the book first, definitely. I reread it every so often, and there aren't that many books that that's true about. Now I'm not sure I want to see the movie, though since I almost expect a movie not to be as good as a favorite book, that probably hasn't changed its chances with me.

Did you ever read Sarah Dunant's historicals? I think I recommended them to you a while back, but you said they'd have to go under a tall pile of books you meant to read first.

[sartorias]

SACRED HEARTS is in my stack, but yeah, it's huge, alas.

[julia_reynolds]

Great blog post!

[sartorias]

Thanks!

[msagara]

Lester walked Mists of Avalon over to Knopf. It was published, by Knopf, in hardcover -- which gained it an enormous amount of attention because Knopf was a mainstream hardcover publisher at a time when there was almost no crossover. I think part of the reason it broke out in such a big way was the publisher; Knopf books were regularly reviewed by mainstream journals, and at that time, there was no internet and book bloggers.

The trade paperback is published by Del Rey now, but the Knopf hc was a big, big deal at the time.

[sartorias]

Thanks for the correction, Michelle. My memory is faulty--partly because the only conversation I heard at Greyhaven was about "Lester" and "Donald."

[msagara]

Thanks for the correction, Michelle. My memory is faulty--partly because the only conversation I heard at Greyhaven was about "Lester" and "Donald."

It wasn't meant to be a "you're wrong!" correction, though -- sorry if I came across that way =/. She did submit to Lester; he thought it was general interest enough for Knopf. I think I read somewhere that this made her enormously nervous, because she did get a lot of ink at that time as well.

But I honestly think that had it not been published by Knopf, had it been published by Del Rey, it wouldn't have had nearly the influence it did, because it wouldn't have gotten the press, or the general readership, Knopf could bring.

I think things are different, now, because, well, 1983. (Also? Wikipedia is wrong, but if you Google, you'll find a couple of solid "all editions" pub pages). I was working in a chain bookstore at the time; I remember the first edition *wry g*.)

[sartorias]

I think you are right about how it reached the mainstream. Though part of its success was the time, too.

I don't mind corrections a bit. My memory is image based, and I know it isn't to be trusted.

[deborahjross]

Thanks for the kind words about how I've continued the Darkover series.

I suspect that some of those clinkers-loved-by-others ended up on the list from a desire to include the author rather than that specific work. For example, I don't think DOG WIZARD is by any stretch Barbara Hambly's best or most influential fantasy. (DRAGONSBANE would be my candidate, but I'd also argue for THE LADIES OF MANDRIGYN or several others, not to mention BRIDE OF THE RAT GOD.) What the lister and I agree on is that Hambly belongs on the list of wonderful (and underrated) women fantasy writers.