Narrator

[sartorias]

I have this idea that at least as important as conflict and character and setting there must also be Voice. That means, the writer really ought to know who the narrator is. And yes, this means tight third. The assumption that tight third means there is no narrator--just a neutral writer-down of text--smashes many stories flat

Comments

[veejane]

While Hammett's shtick did tend toward the dispassionate camera-style (for reasons I think considerably more ambiguous than camrea-mimickry), Chandler was not of the same order. For one thing, his most famous works are in the first person, not third at all.

(For another, I think he styled himself the indulgent observer of all his characters -- many of his first-person similes are far too complex for the actual character, as presented, to have thunk up himself on the spot.)

I don't have a problem with that "exterior-only" mode of writing, and done well I find it can exposit things that the characters would die rather than say (or even think) outright. But I can see why it might be dull to many -- we have cameras for camera-style, and fiction tends to be better served portraying things a camera can't capture.

[sartorias]

You're right--I was simplifying a lot, my emphasis on effect--though Chandler and his style (and expecially his thoughts on writing, expressed in his letters) are well worth taking a closer look at.

[zornhau]

Interesting. I must admit to being hooked on tight 3rd because of the way you can make the subjective look objective.

Getting the voice right seems to be assured by following the Motivation-Reaction structure:

[Sentence without your character in it, but from their POV][Sentence with your character in it]

If the motivation sentence is properly subjective, then bingo there's your voice: a swordsman sees the world differently from an ethnographer.

[sartorias]

That's a great point about how characters see the world, and it's something we all should keep in mind. But I still prefer emotional tone along with it--a preference, I'm not saying any of these things are bad, just I seem to see a trend in so many reactions to books, one that matches my own.

[zornhau]

Would you have an emotional tone out of synch with the character?

[sartorias]

No, proper synch is implied, if I am understanding you a-right. (It's getting hotter, and my brainpower sinks as the temp goes up.)

[coneycat]

The thing I'm working on now (and you kindly read the first chapter of the earlier draft during NaNo last fall) is in tight third person with one main perspective character (Jordy the guitar player) and occasional forays into the perspective of the sister or the cops. I'm finding it entertaining and challenging to keep the Jordy parts sounding like they're really coming directly from his head, in language he'd use. I also find that it's very similar to first-person in that I can't give in to the temptation to just up and tell the reader what to think of Jordy (which never works but I sometimes give in to the temptation to try it) and instead use his reactions and thoughts to create the impression I want them to have. I don't know why I'm not just using first person here in the first place but for some reason tight third seems like the way to go

[sartorias]

I really liked that story, and was sorry not to keep following it, but if I read chapters on line, I never got to finish my LJ run before the timer, that is, a whole lot of journals would have to be ignored, and I never got back because by the time of my next run, there would be another hundred posts at least. The problem of having built such a huge reading list--and being reluctant to trim.

[coneycat]

I completely understand and was just happy that you read and commented on the first chapter--at htat point I really appreciated the encouragement. (I don't read long things online either if I can help it. Too hard on my eyes!)

The problem with long f-lists is not getting to read everything. But the good thing is, there's certainly always something to read! (I only have a couple dozen friended journals and I never comment as much as I want to, but I find myself reading the neatest entries. I just don't feel like a real part of the community if I never say anything. I do try, though.)

[sartorias]

Yes! I often feel like a very bad part of the community, which relies on give and take. But somehow I ahve 350+ people to read, and although I read very fast (and skip all random-generator memes, or any mention of sports) I still don't comment nearly as much as I ought.

[slobbit]

Er, is what you're saying, that you'd like to see the *feel* of the PoV character maintained, even when the narration is glossing lightly over something that only needs to be sketched in?

[sartorias]

If we're strictly tight third, yes.

Let me quickly illustrate what I mean.

Tom entered the library, giving it his usual scan for cute chicks. Woo-ee, there was a bunch of hotties over by the history section. Yep, it was definitely time to study for the ol' history final.

This was finals week at City College, and the library was filled with students, as happened every year at this time. Inbetween midterms and finals the library was usually empty. Tom, like most, only appeared at this time, but he did not come to study.
*

In the first graph, we're in his POV, seeing what he'd see, hearing his thoughts in his own voice. But the second graph shifts into data-mode, neutral, bland language, filling in background info. Nothing objectionable in prose or length, but it slows and deadens the pace--or so I think.

In

[slobbit]

Yeah, we're on the same page. I hate passages like that. If I'm with a character, I like to stay with a character. If I need to deliver information, I do it via character directly, or in the voice. The chapter I'm working on now needs to have a summary of the previous two weeks, and I think it's really important to evoke the right mood. So, it starts out:
~~
Even a man who was about to become a god would wake up with a morning glory and the need to piss.
~~
If that isn't voice, I don't know what is. ;-)

[sartorias]

I LOVE that. It's exactly what I mean: it's a smashing hook!

[green_knight]

I think tight third needs just as much voice - and needs to be just as much in character - as first or omni to work.

I really should try and write in camera-eye sometimes. My flaw is that externalisation - description not tied in immediately to the character's actions and emotions - is *extremely* hard for me, and unless I stop and look around and force it, it doesn't happen. With the flip side that my character ramble on internally for ever.

For me, camera-eye might actually be helpful - it would force me to watch what is happening and to see where I could plant clues as to what's happening that are not a running comment from inside the PoV.

And I think you need a certain familiarity with language to be able to appreciate these nuances - I never used to.

[sartorias]

Sounds like a good writing experiment!

[green_knight]

I like to challenge myself. I'm comfortable enough with my writing that I can relax a little - I know that I won't break anything if I mess about a bit, and this is something that I am really struggling with.

[coneycat]

I'm uncomfortable with camera-eye myself, which means I should probably work on it as well. And yeah--that does sound like a really valuable exercise.