On Free Speech.

[sarren]

My interaction with the internetz has been to not engage in controversial matters, to not express an opinion that people might take ‘the wrong way’, especially in their own journals. Because fandom IS my happy place, I feel I engage on subjects that are important to me in real life quite enough

Comments

[jamethiel_bane]

Hmmm. I find the idea of NOT speaking up when something is problematic equally troubling. However, it's balanced with commodorified's post on 20 reasons to be polite and kind to people in fandom. I realise that people get angry--I tend towards rage myself, but after rereading that post recently, I'm making an effort to be civil. (Re: Stephen Fry's latest comments. I told him that I was angry, and asked that he not police my sexuality or tell me how I feel or act. I was civil, while expressing my point of view

[sarren]

I absolutely agree with speaking up when something is troubling, hence my linking to the more general topic of free speech. I am saying it *is* important to engage in a polite and informative way. And your point about wide discussion of issues is a good one. I have also learned a lot from discussion of race, and triggers, and other issues. Impertinence’s post was amazing.

However, one thoughtless fan writing a fic that she was no doubt very proud of could have been enlightened with a few polite comments. Having her name and crime blazed across fandom will only have the effect of either driving her out of fandom (at least under that name) or provoke a ‘fuck you’ response. She won’t learn anything.

It is unfortunate that people dogpile and that some people are less than polite, but flame-wars are as old as human-kind. I don’t agree with this point. It seems to say we should accept it. I don’t agree that individual fans, whatever their viewpoint, should be ‘dogpiled’, which is just another word for bullying

[jamethiel_bane]

I think that he does have the right to say them. I firmly believe however, that he is an objectionable human being who causes untold pain and distress and that as such he should not find an audience.

I further believe that the sneaky implications behind what he says, of a jewish conspiracy and the anti-semitism that supports such an idea is nasty and dangerous.

The trouble is, I don't believe a few polite comments actually do the job. The Haiti fic was... well. It wasn't just the fact that it was set in Haiti, it displayed some enormously troubling stereotypes (the natural servility of brown folks, some "awww shucks massa" dialogue. Not to mention the dismissal of their religion). I know that I facepalmed all the way through reading it

[sarren]

Unfortunately he does find an audience, and his conspiracy views are dangerous. Most of the people who listen to him are bigots to start with - I think the danger is of his convincing people who’ve never been taught to think for themselves. Should those people be protected from him? Or should the rest of us make more effort to refute his lies?

How do we know a few polite comments wouldn’t have worked? I think before something like this goes viral more effort should made in a low key way. I honestly don’t think she set out to write about ‘troubling’ issues, she thought she was writing a romance - it was ignorance.

I loved that list you linked to about being polite to people, I think it makes another good point - they may be new to fandom, or lj - I think she (and others like her) deserve that benefit of the doubt too. I do not think a proportional response is the answer. I am arguing exactly the opposite. *G*

[bardiegrub]

I only regularly read a few fannish journals that aren't from people I know IRL. On those - maybe unrepresentative - pages, signal boosting has been used to raise awareness of very positive things. I think calling signal boosting 'bullying' is confusing the mode of communication with the content.

Sometimes when people say "shut up, you're wrong" instead of engaging it's because they've tried engaging a thousand times in the past and they're tired of having the same conversation. It's not really an attempt to stifle free speech as much as saying they don't want to hear the same old bullshit arguments again in *their* little corner of the internet. They're trying to create a safe space.

Having said that, I completely agree with the need to listen generously and not form a lynch mob when someone makes a mistake.

[sarren]

That's a very good point. I should clarify that I mean signal boosting specifically to target one fan who has made a mistake, mostly likely through ignorance.

Is there any point in saying 'shut up, you're wrong' though? If the argument's exhausted, and neither side has convinced the other, should it not just...end?

What do you think about free speech in general?

[bardiegrub]

I don't ever advocate saying "shut up, you're wrong'", however tempting it sometimes is. I just sympathise with people who've been told that it's their responsibility to be forever educating the more privileged.

I support people's right to say whatever they believe as part of a reasoned debate, based on evidence etc. I don't support hate speech and vilification. The difficulty problem is the grey area between these two extremes and different opinions about the dividing line.

[sarren]

That's an interesting point about the grey area.

One of the arguments for allowing hate speech and vilification is that if governments have the power to censor people, movements like the American Civil Rights movement would never have succeeded.

I read an interesting article about the difference between the US First Amendment and the Canadian Charter of Rights, which sets limits. The article concluded that they both set out to protect equality and diversity, where they mainly differ is in the level of trust in government.

[bardiegrub]

I apologise for repeating an inappropriate phrase in my comment above. I would edit it if I could.

[sarren]

I have also apologised, and will change the wording in my post. I would be happy to delete the comment if you wished to repost it, but I suspect at this point that wouldn't be the right thing to do? (I am trying to learn)

[sarren]

People speaking up about their feelings and experiences have done a lot to educate fandom, and it's sad that it's an ongoing battle. I do read, and learn. I am aware that I speak from a position of white privilege and do try to be sensitive to people's feelings. I definitely would want to be called on it - as I suspect I just have been, politely, over the use of the expression 'lynch mob'. I didn't use it thoughtlessly - I did think about whether it was appropriate, my call was that it is a expression which has come to mean a mob unjustly victimising a person. But if it makes someone flinch, then I made the wrong call, and I apologise, and will change it

[cricketk]

I'm happy to watch the online discussions occasionally, but rarely ever join in. By the time I'm through qualifying my comments, I've often written hundreds of words without getting close to what I wanted to say when I set out. And convinced myself that the type of contribution I can make to the discussion is not worthy of my time or anyone elses.

I'm also too slow a thinker to react at the speed required to show respect on the internets. I am not gifted enough with the written word to have conversations on the internets that I am willing to have IRL.

[sarren]

I feel the same way, especially since I'm not as smart as a whole lot of people in fandom who discuss these issues.. I am way out of my comfort zone right now, just trying to discuss points that have been raised but I've decided that if I believe in free speech, then I have to be prepared to engage in debate about issues. It can only get easier, right?

I have no idea why it's easier for me to say to my boss 'I found your use of that word offensive, for the following reasons...' than it is to engage people online.

[psycho_tabby]

This is not a comment on the content of your post, which I found interesting but rather a sideline point. I've only ever seen the term "signal boosted" used when fans want to bring to attention a fan in trouble asking for help, or some other aid request. I don' t think I've ever heard the term connected to the singling out of a fan before. It's interesting how the terminology is used.

[sarren]

Yes, bardigrub pointed that out, that's why I belatedly added the part about "(in order to draw attention to a single fan's ignorance)".

Unfortunately it's used for both, now.

This unit I'm doing is about teaching people to think. The problem with thinking for yourself is having to step out of your comfort zone!!!!