Comments | rose_griffes: Leoben and mythology: essay

rose_griffes

Leoben and mythology: essay

Jul 18, 2007 17:14

I wrote an essay! About Leoben! I know you're all shocked. ;-) I started writing this back in February. I make no claims to original thought; in fact, I'm hoping I found most of the links to the original brilliant ideas, but if I missed any, let me know. Many thanks to daybreak777 for looking over two different drafts; her suggestions helped a lot ( Read more... )

mythology, leoben, bsg

Comments 19

snarkyducky July 18 2007, 23:21:18 UTC

wow! thanks for sharing the essay.

did some reading of Native American myths on my own.
i was wondering if you remember anything about the Conoy tribe? i don't know anything about it except that it's the name of a tribe..

rose_griffes July 19 2007, 01:54:21 UTC

Thanks for reading!

i was wondering if you remember anything about the Conoy tribe?

No, that doesn't sound familiar. Hm, maybe I'll check it out.

latrex July 18 2007, 23:43:21 UTC

Very interesting post.

I don't have much to say other than, Katee Sackhoff apparently said at a con recently, that they filmed the Maelstrom sex scene as a rape, which might explain the original intent, but not what ultimately ended up on the screen.

rose_griffes July 19 2007, 01:59:27 UTC

Katee Sackhoff apparently said at a con recently, that they filmed the Maelstrom sex scene as a rape, which might explain the original intent, but not what ultimately ended up on the screen.

That's an interesting bit of information. If they had kept to that idea I'd say it was most likely the "real" Leoben manifesting in Kara's dreams. But that's definitely not what ended up onscreen, especially with the inserts of Kara writhing in her bunk. Wonder if they filmed those later?

Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting.

latrex July 25 2007, 18:43:44 UTC

Very late, but here's the con report:

( ... )

latrex July 25 2007, 18:44:54 UTC

Or not. Stupid lj.

http://canadiangirl-86.livejournal.com/234423.html

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sunny_serenity July 18 2007, 23:58:39 UTC

rose_griffes July 19 2007, 02:00:48 UTC

Yay, thanks for commenting. My inner mythology geek had a lot of fun working on the essay.

Hee! Spike-love. I laughed at your icon.

thateggroll July 19 2007, 07:58:22 UTC

great essay.
actually it all really makes sense.
it would explain why I loved spike/buffy so much and why I love leoben/kara.

rose_griffes July 20 2007, 01:37:25 UTC

Writing this helped me figure out why I find them so compelling, so I'm glad it makes sense to someone else.

daybreak777 July 26 2007, 04:48:51 UTC

I'm so glad that you posted this. I've spent time thinking about Leoben. What he is. What he wants. I think Leoben is on a continuum with other Cylons like Sharon and Six. They want love because they want to be human. Why? I think it was Cavil who said, why not just be the best machines we can be? Because their attempts at love and being human seem to fail. Boomer, CapricaSix, Leoben. I think about Helo shooting his wife. The things Sharon Agathon has gone through. Is this what she wanted when she wanted love ( ... )

rose_griffes July 27 2007, 02:04:15 UTC

I don't know why the Cylons worry more me than the Olympian gods ever did. Probably because the Cylons were created by humans. They are like bad children gone astray. Straying into evil, mad that mom and dad really don't love them. They can never be real. Who is responsible for Cylon nature? The humans who programmed them?

Can a machine that's prorammed even be considered good or evil? Judging them by our standards Sharon is good, Cavil is evil, but they aren't acting by a conscience, they aren't choosing anything--they are what we made them. So I think that humans are ultimately responsible for their nature. Unless we believe that they can have souls, then we're the ones who bear the burden of their acts. Maybe that's why Helo and Admiral Adama are so willing to believe in Sharon's humanity, that she's worthy of trust--because then we (humans) don't have to shoulder the responsibility of the cylons' acts.

The Cylon God?This is one of the things I find most fascinating and scary--that the cylons have developed a separate ( ... )

daybreak777 July 27 2007, 04:35:22 UTC

How did I get so focused Leoben? Or the Cylons? Oh, when I started writing about him. And it's good to leave shipperiness for a bit.

Can a machine that's prorammed even be considered good or evil?
That is the question. Are they just programmed machines anymore? Have they or can they evolve past their programming to independent thought? Is Sharon with Helo because she wants to be or is it because her model was programmed to love? Is that why she's so loyal? Free will or programming? I think that that's what the Cylons desperately want to be. Their own people. I don't want to say that they can't. I really don't know. But if they are independent than they can be good or evil. And when I think evil I think of the imprisonment, the taking of Tigh's eye, women hooked to machines. Did humanity make them do these things? When are the Cylons responsible? Are they ever?

Can you evolve to a soul? What a question. Can a machine have a spirit all it's own beyond programming? It's goes back to Flesh and Bone. What do you think?

his ( ... )

rose_griffes July 27 2007, 15:03:23 UTC

Is Sharon with Helo because she wants to be or is it because her model was programmed to love? Is that why she's so loyal? Free will or programming? I think that that's what the Cylons desperately want to be.

Hm, this discussion is forcing me to clarify my own thoughts. I guess I'd say that Sharon's actions stem from her programming, even her loyalty--if one overriding theme is programmed into a cylon (one or the whole line of the same model?), then they make choices based on that principal. For Sharon it would be to reproduce, to have (and raise?) a family. Her loyalty to the humans could be attributed to her programming even though she feels she made a choice.

Ah, ever the Leoben apologist. Is it his programming or his will? Heh, I wasn't trying to defend him that time. I think he'd want to disagree with me, actually--to take responsibility for his actions because he believes in his soul. (And by take responsibility I mean he'd say he made choices to do them, but I doubt he'd want to go to prison for them.) But if his ( ... )

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