Several different things have made me think about regional accents recently. Specifically, the kudos that seems to be attached to not having one
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"It makes me angry that those with RP accents feel"
Ah, ISWYM. I didn't mean 'those with RP accents' as in 'everyone with RP accents', I meant 'those with RP accents (that I've encountered)'. But it doesn't seem to read like that now. Still, this comment can serve as witness to what I did mean. If I went through it again I'd probably end up rephrasing everything, but life's too short.
Is it?Er, yes. I mean, yes, you're right that an accent specifically refers to phonology, and that the phonology isn't the only aspect that *can* make a dialect. But phonology alone *can* make a dialect. Does that make sense? If you pronounce things in a Yorkshire accent, then you're speaking a Yorkshire dialect
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Erm, I'm massively oversimplifying, possibly to the extent of being patronising. Sorry! :(
Oh, no! I appreciate you being aware of the possibility, but that's probably actually about the right level of explaining to us :) For instance, no, I'd never heard the term "phonology" before, though I hope I remember it now.
So (linguistically) a dialect is a subdivision of a language, or similar, in the same way two languages might be different, but less so? And it typically varies in several of the ways you mention, but might be all, or might only be one? And an accent is the way of pronunciation of a dialect?
But in normal English we tend to confuse the two? And also that the more we use "accent" to mean "accent", we've also come to use "dialect" to mean "the parts of a dialect that *aren't* an accent"?
I'd never heard the term "phonology" before, though I hope I remember it nowOoh, in that case, proper definition: the sounds that can be produced with the vocal organs are referred to by the term 'phonetics'; by contrast, 'phonology' is the term used to describe the patterns of phonetic units as used within a language
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RP is closest to the rural accents of Oxfordshire/Buckinghamshire areas, and historically seems to have developed from these, at around the same time as Standard (Southern British) English was developing from the speech of people in the Oxford-Cambridge-London triangle i.e. over the last 500 years (though RP and SE don't have to go together, obviously, and far more people speak SE in the UK now than speak with an RP accent). The snobbishness attached to RP (and SE) seems to have developed over the same time period, with the development of dictionaries and grammars and pronouncing dictionaries for the English language as part of the standardisation process: the speech of the powerful and socially-influential (often located in London and the Home Counties) was taken as a model of correctness and elegance, though its origins were much the same as any other regional variety.
There's a really great three-volume book on accents, Accents of English, with a long introductory section about RP and its different forms, by Wells: 768.c.98.24-6
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Ooh, thank you, that's very informative (I might well check out the book you recommend when I'm less busy with the flaming Phoenicians[2]). I couldn't quite imagine where to pin it down, but assumed it must have come from a particular place.
That must be a pretty steep prestige gradient then, given how it's taken off! :)
Have the vowels is 'her', 'hair', 'curly'[1] merged? They have in my natural accent, so I always stumble over them in RP.
[1] You can tell this comes from a particular example! [2] That sounds like a new Horrible Histories volume.
The vowels in "her" and "curly" are the same in RP i.e. /ɜ:/ but the one in "hair" is a diphthong /ɛə/ (same phoneme as in "there" and "bear" incidentally). (I hope the IPA comes out OK for you there!)
IPA coming out perfectly :) Thank you, this will help a lot when I find myself hesitating with vowels :)
Aha, I had a feeling that 'hair' was different - thought I'm not entirely sure whether I tend to pronounce it as a diphthong or not when speaking RP. It's so difficult to tell what you would say naturally when concentrating on the issue - the bane of linguistic surveyors, of course!
I get very, very confused about what actually constitutes "an RP accent".
I know - and can hear - the difference between the average Cambridge undergraduate accent (which is surprisingly quite consistent, and is close to what I'd reckon is Southern Standard British English, or SSBE) and what I consider RP (as exemplified, in this case, by Francis Nolan in the Linguistics department). However, what you and some of the commenters refer to as "an RP accent" sounds like what I'd consider as SSBE.
As for snobbishness? I'm really not sure, but adopting a non-region-specific accent is often an effective way of hiding one's origins, especially if one considers one's own accent to have negative connotations (or if others do).
I probably have mentioned this, but I made a conscious effort to alter my accent when I went to secondary school to sound more like the other people there and less like I was from Watford, and it stuck.
Is SSBE not the same as what vyvyan above as a younger person's RP? I thought they were - but perhaps there are phonological differences that I don't know of? I didn't realise there were two different dialects regarded as standardised pronunciation.
What is the history of SSBE? Southern, I gather, but does it originate from a different area to RP?
I'm very curious now!
especially if one considers one's own accent to have negative connotations (or if others do)
Yes, this is the bit that upsets me. It seems such a shame that negative connotations should be attached to one's homeland. I think, as far as I have noticed within academia anyway, that most regional accents acquire negative connotations (because people think they are in some way ignorant of the RP pronunciations of things? because they are considered too difficult to understand? I don't know) - except ones that indicate a different country of origin. Though, to be fair, I've known of people with Scottish accents being bullied by certain individuals in Cambridge.
Sorry if I caused any confusion - in my comment, I was using S(SB)E to refer to grammar and vocabulary really, and not an accent (hence me saying that one could speak SE with a variety of accents, or use RP with non-standard dialect forms). Wells talks a lot about different subvarieties of RP (linked to age and native speaker-ness mainly) but IIRC also mentions that many English speakers in the south speak something fairly close to RP without actually falling within his definitions! E.g. one could use the vowel phonemes of RP but have a certain number of glottal stops in one's speech, or realise the vowel phonemes slightly differently from RP while marking all the same distinctions.
E.g. one could use the vowel phonemes of RP but have a certain number of glottal stops in one's speech, or realise the vowel phonemes slightly differently from RP while marking all the same distinctions.
Is that the dialect coming into contact with other regional dialects (I mean, geographically, if that makes sense)? Or is it more a matter of register (i.e. prestige gradient with pure RP forms seen as desirable - therefore other regional dialects tend towards it)? Not that I think the answer could be nearly as simple as I'm suggesting!
I must say, I think Classics is a peculiar case just because of the background the majority of Classicists have - even now, Classics is taught and encouraged more in the private sector than the state sector, and you can imagine what the situation was like, say, thirty years ago or more (i.e. when the people who are now important Classcists were growing up).
I only had elocution lessons at primary school, but I did find it a good aspect of education - it wasn't just about how to pronounce things, but about e.g. how to speak to an audience, or how to get emotion in when reading prose aloud. We had Drama at secondary school, but that was less fun - mostly involved conceptualising and playing the method actor game.
I think a sort of last generation BBC accent would count as RP. In the last, say, twenty years, I think the BBC has got away from that though :)
Those of us from further south who said "jamper" and "barth" instead of "joomper" and "bath" got the odd teasing comment though ;)
OOI, was that much of a problem? I mean, was it bad enough to count as real bullying, or just one of those things where you have an oposition that everyone gets involved in?
i forgot to check back on this post...ext_72852February 5 2008, 22:44:47 UTC
oh, no, it wasn't bullying.
there were, I think, a lot of - social pressures? - at school. I felt uncomfortable for wearing the Wrong Clothes a lot of the time, for example. I think that those applied to thin out the broadest accents.
however the teasing-thing for southern(?) vs northern(?) accents would have been day-folk (locals) towards boarders and I don't think problems generally occurred in that direction anyway.
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Ah, ISWYM. I didn't mean 'those with RP accents' as in 'everyone with RP accents', I meant 'those with RP accents (that I've encountered)'. But it doesn't seem to read like that now. Still, this comment can serve as witness to what I did mean. If I went through it again I'd probably end up rephrasing everything, but life's too short.
Is it?Er, yes. I mean, yes, you're right that an accent specifically refers to phonology, and that the phonology isn't the only aspect that *can* make a dialect. But phonology alone *can* make a dialect. Does that make sense? If you pronounce things in a Yorkshire accent, then you're speaking a Yorkshire dialect ( ... )
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Oh, no! I appreciate you being aware of the possibility, but that's probably actually about the right level of explaining to us :) For instance, no, I'd never heard the term "phonology" before, though I hope I remember it now.
So (linguistically) a dialect is a subdivision of a language, or similar, in the same way two languages might be different, but less so? And it typically varies in several of the ways you mention, but might be all, or might only be one? And an accent is the way of pronunciation of a dialect?
But in normal English we tend to confuse the two? And also that the more we use "accent" to mean "accent", we've also come to use "dialect" to mean "the parts of a dialect that *aren't* an accent"?
(I love that wikipedia has a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy :))
If you pronounce ( ... )
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There's a really great three-volume book on accents, Accents of English, with a long introductory section about RP and its different forms, by Wells: 768.c.98.24-6 ( ... )
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That must be a pretty steep prestige gradient then, given how it's taken off! :)
Have the vowels is 'her', 'hair', 'curly'[1] merged? They have in my natural accent, so I always stumble over them in RP.
[1] You can tell this comes from a particular example!
[2] That sounds like a new Horrible Histories volume.
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Aha, I had a feeling that 'hair' was different - thought I'm not entirely sure whether I tend to pronounce it as a diphthong or not when speaking RP. It's so difficult to tell what you would say naturally when concentrating on the issue - the bane of linguistic surveyors, of course!
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I know - and can hear - the difference between the average Cambridge undergraduate accent (which is surprisingly quite consistent, and is close to what I'd reckon is Southern Standard British English, or SSBE) and what I consider RP (as exemplified, in this case, by Francis Nolan in the Linguistics department). However, what you and some of the commenters refer to as "an RP accent" sounds like what I'd consider as SSBE.
As for snobbishness? I'm really not sure, but adopting a non-region-specific accent is often an effective way of hiding one's origins, especially if one considers one's own accent to have negative connotations (or if others do).
I probably have mentioned this, but I made a conscious effort to alter my accent when I went to secondary school to sound more like the other people there and less like I was from Watford, and it stuck.
Reply
What is the history of SSBE? Southern, I gather, but does it originate from a different area to RP?
I'm very curious now!
especially if one considers one's own accent to have negative connotations (or if others do)
Yes, this is the bit that upsets me. It seems such a shame that negative connotations should be attached to one's homeland. I think, as far as I have noticed within academia anyway, that most regional accents acquire negative connotations (because people think they are in some way ignorant of the RP pronunciations of things? because they are considered too difficult to understand? I don't know) - except ones that indicate a different country of origin. Though, to be fair, I've known of people with Scottish accents being bullied by certain individuals in Cambridge.
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E.g. one could use the vowel phonemes of RP but have a certain number of glottal stops in one's speech, or realise the vowel phonemes slightly differently from RP while marking all the same distinctions.
Is that the dialect coming into contact with other regional dialects (I mean, geographically, if that makes sense)? Or is it more a matter of register (i.e. prestige gradient with pure RP forms seen as desirable - therefore other regional dialects tend towards it)? Not that I think the answer could be nearly as simple as I'm suggesting!
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I've never had elocution lessons - Speech and Drama was about how to read poetry, coupled with some theory of vowel sounds etc.
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I only had elocution lessons at primary school, but I did find it a good aspect of education - it wasn't just about how to pronounce things, but about e.g. how to speak to an audience, or how to get emotion in when reading prose aloud. We had Drama at secondary school, but that was less fun - mostly involved conceptualising and playing the method actor game.
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At my yorkshire secondary school a few of the first year intake had accents thick enough to be hard to understand, but they faded very quickly.
Those of us from further south who said "jamper" and "barth" instead of "joomper" and "bath" got the odd teasing comment though ;)
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Those of us from further south who said "jamper" and "barth" instead of "joomper" and "bath" got the odd teasing comment though ;)
OOI, was that much of a problem? I mean, was it bad enough to count as real bullying, or just one of those things where you have an oposition that everyone gets involved in?
Reply
there were, I think, a lot of - social pressures? - at school. I felt uncomfortable for wearing the Wrong Clothes a lot of the time, for example. I think that those applied to thin out the broadest accents.
however the teasing-thing for southern(?) vs northern(?) accents would have been day-folk (locals) towards boarders and I don't think problems generally occurred in that direction anyway.
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