Normatively understood ways of refusing

[rivkat]

Comments

[empresspatti]

I had so many conversations with my Daughter about trusting her instincts and clearly articulating BACK OFF and NO in so many situations. My Mom was adamant about me always 'being nice' which was the worst advice in so many situations. Luckily, I've always been been quickly assertive. I've hollered 'GET AWAY FROM ME NOW' in several situations. It might bring the party or date to a screeching halt, but tough shit. Loud is almost always effective.

[rivkat]

Right--though I thought the article was particularly good at pointing out that (1) most other refusal situations don't require that! Most everyone regularly understands refusals before getting to that point. Not backing off and making you escalate--and then treating the situation like you were the one doing the strange and disruptive thing, as opposed to the guy who wouldn't take ordinary refusal for an answer--is itself the product of structural sexism. And (2) lots of women have lots of good reasons not to holler in lots of situations, and therefore it shouldn't be the standard we counsel women to meet as rape prevention, especially because, among other things, rapists are always willing to move the goal posts for what was good enough refusal.

[thisficklemob]

This is thought-provoking. On the one hand, this makes perfect sense, and upsets sexist applecarts, and I like both of those things.

On the other hand, I remember quite clearly (as a young woman taking martial arts and women's self-defense) how difficult it was to actually practice saying "no." Just "no." To everyday requests like, "Oh, caia, can you give me a ride home?" And instead of saying, "Sorry, I can't," or temporizing or offering excuses, just saying the word "no."

And they're right, it was absolutely conversationally weird. Rude. Uncomfortable. But I think it taught us something about how hard it is for us as women to "just say no," how much we're socialized to please. People can talk all they like about that, but until you actually try doing it, it's all abstract. Even more useful was excising "please" from "get your hand off me" or "let go

[rivkat]

I get that! I'm all in favor of a-ha moments. But I'm persuaded that it's a mistake to think of "explicit" nos as part of rape prevention or self-defense--as the article says, the current framing defines the problem as women's need to say no better, and that's a losing game. Even when men ultimately, after a long time, listen--why should women have to fight socialization to turn down unwanted sex? Where's the rape prevention telling men to fight the socialization that women's refusals of sex aren't refusals, compared to other refusals offered in the same way? What are the a-ha moments for men

[thisficklemob]

Where's the rape prevention telling men to fight the socialization that women's refusals of sex aren't refusals, compared to other refusals offered in the same way? What are the a-ha moments for men? Absolutely. I hate how rape is defined as a women's problem rather than a men's problem, even though men commit 99% of rapes. I've been glad to see, over the last decade or so, a lot of push back on that, such as the "Fool-proof rape prevention" guide full of tips for men on not raping women

[shoofus]

here is a very clear example, and its not the spanish that was the issue

http://www.suntimes.com/24817562-761/language-barrier-led-to-confusion-in-dismissed-rape-case-woman-says.html